Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

@Treemouser - that sounds neither relaxing nor fun having to police all that. I get your point but this is a social group, for fun!

A group of lesbians having a lager in a pub should be able to do that without having to write a policy document for joiners.

haha, sorry just saw this and have never seen such bollocks!!

I also belong to many lesbian social groups and it is constant drama and politics and fixating over identity of members, and always has been (I remember the old days when we were obsessed with talking about whether bisexuals could join).

But as the OP says:

There are plenty of groups where everyone can identify how they like. There's one locally. This person is not without options.

This is ONE group where female homosexuals wish to celebrate being female and homosexual. This person does not share their belief in biology.

So either the group changes and everyone but this one person loses something...

Or this person encounters one thing that isn't for them.

True

And how all the other groups accept males, so this one should too.

Why? Surely that shows that female-only is an under-occupied niche, and the group should carry on as it is?

And I'm a completely straight woman, who would consider a transwoman as a partner but not a transman. I'm opposite sex attracted.

I find it a bit off that some posters want to offload the transman to seek a date amongst straight women. Just as women shouldn't have to budge up to accommodate men presenting as women (whatever that means), straight women shouldn't have to make space for a male presenting lesbian.

I realise that renders her homeless in a way but ..... it's not my job to 'get over myself' to date a lesbian.

I think it's the terra nullis/ rules of misogyny thing.

If something is only being useful to female people then it isn't useful (in fact it's a bit wrong of them to be doing it), and it's brown field needing to be turned to something more relevant/worthy that focuses on males.

You could replace all the spiel with

'females should not be in any group not focused on TQ+ people' and 'female humans are service animals with no lives or worth in themselves if theyre not serving their betters'. Its that grim. I mean with multiple groups any TQ+ person could choose from, who looks at one single female only group happily and successfully serving those females, and says it should stop what is working for them and be Like Everyone Else.

As someone else up thread expressed really well, it isn't in this instance about being biologically female, which is a valid arguement about service provision etc.. This is a group for biological women who are same sex attracted. The transman has rejected their femaleness and in doing that can not longer be, whether with or without surgery. They have rejected their female body and are "living as a man".

I really dont see how this person's personal confusion should be allowed to derail the group.

The LGBTQI+ network is the appropriate place for her to seek support.

Women who are lesbian, continue to be lesbian can not support her as they do not share her experience of rejecting her female body. They inhabit and celebrate their female body and are sexually attracted to biological females.

Nils, I find it curious how many women who claim to be happy in the inclusive groups have so much energy to harangue the women who want some entrance criteria on their own meet-ups.

It's like they think any female-only group poses an existential threat to the inclusive groups.

I'm going with the first post as I imagine other posts will be saying similar to yours and guess what - I'm off out lesbian socialising tonight...!

Ok - the reality is, in my decades of experience, is that there no take-over of lesbian groups by transwomen, transmen, men but having a less obsessive focus on ID. It just doesn't happen. These boards seem to assume that this would the case, it's just not. It simply does not happen. They attract natal female lesbian women at a far higher rate than any other demographic, and these people remain the vast, vast, vast majority membership consistently over time.

It is also the case, in my experience, that lesbian social groups, in the main, have a very tolerant attitude to 'blurriness around the edges' as I have previously described it. They are not focused on hostile policing of boundaries and exclusion - they are focused on having fun. And they consist of individuals who know what it is like to be excluded and unwelcome, and are, generally, uninterested in making others feel unwelcome.

It could well happen that there are some that feel strongly about issues of ID but what would actually transpire in that instance is that they would be very much outweighed by the vast majority of members who felt that inclusion for blurriness around the edges is important - so their attitudes would generally not hold sway and their thinking would not determine group policy. In which case those individuals might choose to self-exclude, I guess, as is their right.

They might choose to set up a more exclusive group based on the significance they attach to ID and group boundaries. But I can tell you right now they would be a rather small group and many, many lesbians would not want to join or associate with them - because they value the principles of inclusion and support more than they are interesting in associating by strict ID.

There we go.

"I'm better than you lot"

"Everyone should be like me"

"Nobody likes females who centre females and won't wholly revolve around TQ+ people"

Yeah you do you lovey. Go have a lovely evening lesbianing your way.

Not even one group can be permitted.

Take that in. Not one .

Oh just rename the whole bloody thing to be called "Lager Lady Lesbians Attitude Association".

Or just take it private and text each other, which is real life and just means you get the same result

Suggestions, you've untidily segued into "well, no-one would want to join the OP's group, so there". In a thread where the OP is encountering that people do want to join, and in a thread whether she has never, not even once, implied that they have too few members to sustain it.

I think this is wishful thinking on your part, and I'd like you to interrogate yourself as to why.

You apparently have a fun-filled evening ahead of you of socialising in a group that is "vast, vast, vast majority" female and claim to be happy with it.

So why is it such a problem that some women want an entirely female group without trans activists in it? How will it make your night worse to know they are having a few drinks somewhere else?

They might choose to set up a more exclusive group based on the significance they attach to ID and group boundaries. But I can tell you right now they would be a rather small group and many, many lesbians would not want to join or associate with them - because they value the principles of inclusion and support more than they are interesting in associating by strict ID.

So fucking well what if the group is small? If that's what the members of the group want that is THEIR choice, what difference does it make to you? Who are you to speak for all lesbians @suggestionsplease1 ? You absolutely can't bear the thought of some people doing what suits them and not you can you?

Not every group has to be run to your standards, not every group has to include everybody.

Surely we can cede that lesbians - not bisexual women, not straight women, not males-who-dress-as-women, not asexual women, not gender non-conforming women, not females-who-wish-to-dissociate-from-women - are entitled to their own space? Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Lesbian is a specific category with its own definition, culture and history. Lesbians aren't required to accommodate every other person who feels like they fancy the company of lesbians, but don't actually fit in that category.

Imagine a county where there were multiple All-Racquet Sports clubs, and one small badminton club full of people who never wanted to play tennis. Imagine that tennis aficionados from the All Raquet Sports clubs obsessed over the existence of that badminton club.

What would you conclude? I'd conclude that the tennis fans knew quite well that a significant segment of the All Racquet Sports clubs' membership disliked tennis and only wanted to play badminton. I'd then think that the tennis fans were worried that any visible success on the part of the badminton-only club might lead to a mass exodus of members from their own All Racquet Sports clubs.

If it’s a group for she/hers that are biologically female then it’s not the right place for a transman. It’s as simple as that.

You're not in a lesbian social group if anyone and their mates and dog are in the same group. You're just in a group.

If there was a group set up exclusively for transmen then I cannot imagine you'd have lesbians insisting that they be allowed to join.

This was my reaction. You can't have transwomen and transmen in lesbian groups.

I’m bisexual & would not dream of inviting myself to an all-lesbian group. Why would I?

If there’s a group for women who are into women, then fine!

Perhaps you have respect for lesbians. I'd argue many women who are same sex attracted and who become transmen lack that sort of respect. Indeed, maybe they loathe lesbians, in some rather profound way?

If you are talking about the Michigan fest, the first one was in 1976 in Hesperia MI. I first went in 1979 (Hesperia) and then it moved to Hart MI the next year I think. Fest went on for 40 years, until Lisa Vogel got sick of defending our right to have a female-only space, ONCE per year, on land that SHE owned. The TRAs were supported by every gay and human rights organizations and it was just sickening. I can't count the times I've been treated like I just haven't had the right dick yet.

So if I wasnt clear, hell YES lesbians have every right to be a same-sex attracted lesbian only group. I am so sick of the accusations that loving ourselves is hateful to bi's, trans, and the rest of the alphabet. It's just sexism dressed up in a rainbow flag.