Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

<Stands up and applauds>

ME TOO.

It absolutely is. Same sex attracted women are a huge threat to patriarchy and the trans community (which I feel is a branch of patriarchy).

No, I was talking about LFest here in the UK. I think it folded this year.

Did I just read a ‘size does matter’ post about lesbian meet ups?

I seriously think that OP doesn’t give a fuck about the size of your ‘groups’ Suggestions. Strange that you felt you had to mention them…..

I miss lesbian spaces too, I used to have a social life. I’m not very confident, and couldn’t deal with the transwomen invasion.

The pool of females exclusively attracted to other females is so small. They need spaces apart from straight, trans and even bi and bi curious people. I don't understand why that is controversial.

Though a trans man is female if they claim TMAM, and if they have taken testosterone or surgical measures then they have no claim or right to those spaces.

Entirely up to the lesbian population I would say, but they have given up the right.

Are there any trans man /straight woman relationships in the public sphere?

Maybe Elliott Page will be the leading man in a movie. They just have to find a four-foot fall woman as the love interest.

Darn, four-foot tall!

Quick chat to an old friend this morning and I told her what had been happening. She just said quite right, good decision: we're all proud and happy to be female in female bodies but the TM isn't, and whether it's internalised homophobia or self-hatred and so she's not a good fit. I quite like that phrase and I can hear us using it with the next trans woman who tries to lever their way in. 'Fraid you're not a good fit. Goodbye.'

Tom Cruise has starred with actresses who were taller than him. And I’m assuming your point is that social norms and/or Hollywood expectations mean a leading man can’t be shorter than his (female) love interest, rather than that this is necessarily the case?

Actually I was kind of just taking the piss. But do you think the same people who say TWAW actually BELIEVE she is a man? I think the entire trans movement is for the benefit of males and the trans-identifed females are just sort of tolerated as an afterthought.

@aseriesofstillimages - Tom Cruise has lifts in his shoes and an orange box for close ups!

Julia Roberts and Anne Hathaway have also towered over leading men - beautiful women and tall !

Well it seems to me it depends what you mean by ‘man’ - and indeed, when it comes to saying TWAW, by ‘woman’. I would regard EP as a man in some senses, while also accepting he is in some regards significantly different from cis gender men.

I don’t believe there is a ‘trans movement’, at least not in the way you appear to mean it.

Well they could do that for EP too, if he wanted

So you are saying a female with a trans identity is not a man? You can’t be a man in some ways and some ways not. That’s not how this works. Either you believe EP is a man in all ways, or you believe EP is a female with a trans identity, and therefore not a man.

EP is a biological female who has expressed a choice of how they would like to be perceived and named by others. They are a transman, which is a female who would prefer to be responded to as if their sex were male.

Which is fine, with the boundaries being where sex matters and impacts on others, and where others are being required to state something as the truth that they do not believe or agree with.

Some may politically/theologically like to debate to what extent a female can become a man, and it's rather like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

That’s not how you think it works, that doesn’t mean I have to agree. I think EP is a man in some ways and not in others.

I entirely agree with you that getting into philosophical debates about who exactly is or isn’t a man or woman is pretty pointless.

what matters is identifying the circumstances in which biology matters (eg elite sports, medical treatment, data collection) and trying to find approaches that make sense and are as fair as possible to everyone affected.

Or rather I should have said “you think that’s not how it works”

You’re right @aseriesofstillimages there is no point getting into a philosophical debate of who exactly is a man. Because there is no debate. A man is an adult human male. Easy. No female can be a man. Just as no male can be a woman. See, no philosophy needed.

Yes. This.

Mutual tolerance of difference of belief, we're a multi faith society, and the key is that biology does matter. The approaches not only need to make sense though, the concept of 'fairness' needs to be thoroughly unpicked. Because the primary issue here is that female humans as a sex class are not treated less equally to male ones.

At the moment we live in a country where a male person's feelings and sense of self have considerably higher value than a female person's feelings, sense of self and actual bodily safety, where extreme physical risk of lifelong harm is an open option considered acceptable collateral damage in proper care of the male.

Fairness is going to have to get in line behind a lot of other problems. The key one is society being able to get past seeing females as a subclass of human who should not talk about or meet for themselves, or put their own needs above others, or fail to sacrifice on demand for higher status people.

And all this is happening in the ridiculous situation of 'but lets argue that sex doesn't really exist - or not in all contexts'.

Yes. Yes it does. There is no point of transition where a male person ever slips into the subhuman status awarded to females. And I'm not talking about sex role play games based on mutual consent.

I’ve a little crush on Gwendoline Christie - she is stunning and 6’3” and I think she rocks.

Well it seems to me it depends what you mean by ‘man’ - and indeed, when it comes to saying TWAW, by ‘woman’.

So I can be a transwoman then? 🤔 I hope so, cos it seems a pretty safe and feted ID.

Opps link to Gwendoline Christie

www.imdb.com/name/nm3729225/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm