Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

I wish I was more surprised that a serious thread about an issue specifically affecting lesbians ends up being taken over by straight women discussing girl-crushes.

Yes @pattihews I’m sorry about that.

I don't want to be a grouch, but it happens all the time.

Erm, we're not all straight? <raises hand>

While people are saying things like sex matters in women's sport, can we at LEAST agree to care that sex matters for homosexuals? To see exactly what I mean, please google "terf is a slur documenting" .... The lack of respect for lesbians by: straight men, gay men, bi men, transwomen, straight women (with girl crushes), bi women, transmen, and let's not forget the "queers, asexual and they/thems". ... The level of women-hating and completely normalizing lesbophobia seems to have no limit. This is homophobia on fucking steroids, and I wish women would open their eyes to the fact that the women-hating we lesbians face is gonna come around to you sooner or later. Can if you home a out being straight with women crushes, you might as well be a dude

@MissingLesbianSpaces - I see the appalling lesbophobia and abhor it utterly.

That's nonsensical.

Yes, unfortunately reality doesn't organise itself around what people think. Biological sex is immutable.

Are you assuming my sexuality here?

I see the appalling lesbophobia and it gives me the rage (and this is as a straight woman). How dare society expect women and more specifically lesbians to always make room, move over, 'be kind' and deny themselves what they need in order to give to someone else?

So many of the posters on this thread have completely missed the point that its not just a women's group, its a group specifically for lesbians, women who define themselves as same sex attracted, and therefore have different needs and wants to all women as a general group.

Can you imagine a room full of gay men accepting a wavering transwoman to join them because 'be kind'? No, neither can I.

While the trans man is, biologically, a woman, politically they are not - they have publicly rejected womanhood and want to use male pronouns. And this is a crucial and important distinction. In some circumstances this matters, and this is one of those circumstances (for those who would deliberately misunderstand this - I am not arguing that I think this makes them a male, it's not a gotcha 🙄).

Placed alongside the very odd circumstances of their sudden arrival, this it would make me very wary of their possible agenda, while at the same time feeling very sorry for them if they are thinking about detransistion and looking for friends & support. But if that's what they are looking for then its not your responsibility to provide it at the expense of your own safe space and in the current climate you are right to be very wary.

If you are still considering admitting them, it would be worth finding our their views on homosexuality and same sex attraction as it could be likely that they are significantly different to the views held by most of the group. As this the very reason the group exists, to support same sex attracted women, that difference could well lead to problems for the group if they join. They sound like a likely destabilising influence, and you are not obliged to accept that. Good luck with negotiating this hurdle and defending your space.

I lived in Eastern Europe several years ago. The city where I worked had a "gay friendly bar" which was a mixed space for gay and straight people (mainly hetero women) and a nice atmosphere. Then there was the actual "gay bar" which was resolutely men only. You had to be buzzed in by Security. Absolutely no women allowed in.

I would describe "inclusive" lesbian groups as "lesbian friendly". I hope the OP's actual lesbian group are ok.

We are, thank you. We're having our Christmas do next week: a private event in a local cafe. 23 of us booked to attend so far, all biologically female, all lesbian. Unfortunately a friend of several people who would have come died a couple of weeks ago and they're all going to miss it because they're attending her funeral. We're going to have a cabaret night. Several talented performers and several not quite so talented. It'll be a good night.

Good for you Pattihews. Don't ever bow down to the lesbophobes, lesbians have every right to meet in peace. Once everyone can be a lesbian, we cannot say we wouldn't have sex with them because, well they are a lesbian just like us. And shame on the straight women here who had a LOT to say about who belongs in private lesbian spaces -- practice what you preach. If you have zero attraction to females, please go down on a transman and then come back here to tell us there is no difference and we have no right to define ourselves (and neither do you)

Brava!

Pattihews:
I'm coming to the point where I think lesbians are allowed to draw their own lines wherever they see fit, which mind in this case end up in yet another group splitting. Everything about gender ideology is destructive and divisive.

I'm an old school Lesbian and was almost thrown out of my lesbian social group in 2010 by complaints of 2 trans-identifying males. I had to apologize for saying " who would want to be a man" and laughing!

This taught me how women, even lesbians, are socialized to yield to male desires.

Feck that and the girl with the beard can hang out with the straights; males physically disgust me.

Transmen are different than transwomen. Most transmen over forty once identified as butch lesbians as the best available gender role. It wouldn’t bother me, as they had experienced true womanhood.

Internalized lesbophobia is one reason young women with same sex attraction seek transition. I want them to have supportive nondirective therapy to explore their emotional issues and decide whether transition is the best answer. Buying time for young people prevents irreversible bodily changes which consequences they don’t entirely comprehend.

Late to the thread and haven't read all but.. imo to be consistent, if lesbian social groups exclude males who claim to be female, they need to include females who claim to be male.

They really don't need to 'be consistent', they need to be a lesbian social group that provides social enjoyment for the lesbians part of it. Who enjoy and celebrate being biological women who are happy being biological women and loving women. It is wholly unnecessary for them to stop what is meeting the needs of the people of that group in order to revolve around the needs and wishes of someone who does not celebrate or want to acknowledge their biology, and who has plenty of other groups they can access.

If you read the whole thread, or even just all the OP's part of it, that's all very well explained.

Can you just ask him.. do you identify as a woman? Can we refer to you as she? No? Then why join a female identifying group?

Maybe I'm that version the person will understand. Im not quite sure why someone who identifies as male, would want to be in a female identifying group tbh it's like me joining a football club when I hate football

Absolutely agree @nilsmousehammer
who are the Lesbians on this thread? I know Nils, Pattihews and I are.
It's our social group, stop telling us this 'be kind' crap to self-hating women who take hormones to resemble men . Ugh, what a total turn off!

I'm a lesbian and have issues with groups containing transwomen (because they are men) and trans men (because they would rather pretend to be men than butch women).

It's like the whole 'learn to cope' (with straight sex, that you won't enjoy, but is a social duty to provide to male people who identify as lesbians.)

The key message is always to women:

• stop enjoying yourself, it's not what you exist for
• you have no right to do things just for you and other women, it's selfish and nasty
• stop expecting to have fun, enjoy anything (even sex), you are on this planet to serve either male people or a group of people who have identified out of being women into the more powerful sex
• you have no entitlement or rights, just never ending responsibilities
• what do you mean 'you don't want to' and 'that destroys the group for everyone else' - service provide and shut up damnit!

No. For goodness sakes no. This is ridiculous misogyny. Women have lives too, and are entitled to groups of their own, and to have fun and enjoy them, and have quality of life outside of the never ending providing lovely therapeutic support to others.

FWR: If you're a TW go into men's spaces, it doesn't matter how you identify!
FWR: If you're a TM you're not allowed in a woman's space, it matters how you identify!

If you want to draw a hard line it goes both ways. If you think TM are misguided, vulnerable women (something said so many times on this forum) then surely they need support.