Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

I would be reminded of the many, many L groups destroyed from within by TQ+ members who insisted that either everyone obeyed and conformed or the group must be eliminated, and that essentially involved forcing out the concept and language of homosexuality or permitting females an all female space. Which is why so many L groups now operate underground. The politics works on a 'search and destroy' mode for female only facilities evading male control.

This, exactly.

I think that your group have come to the correct decision. When ambushed by the beard, you fell into #BeKind. Now you have thought about it, you realise that the beard does not fit into your philosophy and has no right to demand membership.

This seems an eminently sensible response, and a compassionate one that considers everyone in the situation.

In my experience, there are lots of people who used to identify as lesbian who are now transitioning. Maybe they have realised that queer spaces are not all they're cracked up to be and miss having a single sex space.

Do you mean transitioning back to being female/lesbian, Sappho?

I know a few detransitioners but most (as far as I know) are still taking testosterone etc

Sorry, Sappho. What I meant was that I didn't quite grasp what you were saying in the bit I quoted.

Probably can't get a straight woman to date her.

Thanks to all who've helped me think through this. Been through it before with TWs, should know it off by heart now — and yet still we have to work our way back through all the layers to the basics of belief.

Maya Forstater, thank you yet again. I can remember years ago when you and Ben decided to fight on the basis of belief there were a lot of us here wondering what that was all about. Now I get it.

Boundaries for the group might be ‘Biological women who are also lesbians’. I don’t think TM or TW can fit this criteria.

Possibly.

I can't speak for any other lesbians but I would consider a trans man as a partner but not a trans woman.

Good luck with the Zoom. I'm a woman with a male husband. I would expect you to politely decline my request to join your group if I was daft enough to ask as...I am not a lesbian! Sometimes the answer is No and that's OK.

I initially thought you could allow her in to help her on her journey but the other posters have changed my mind! F that! This is your group for your people. Look how much mental energy this has already cost.

No. Here are the trans groups. Come back if you decide to be a female lesbian.

Best wishes ❤️

It’s a private social group & not a provider of goods & services.

So I believe you can exclude anyone you want.

Thank you.

Same. I have sometimes found trans men attractive but the problem is that I'm basically attracted to them when reading them as a butch woman - which is a challenging basis for a relationship or even ONS!

I can only assume that the lesbians I know who date trans men perceive the whole business completely differently...

I used to be involved in organising a lesbian only event; our decision was women born as and living as women. Used to get regular abusive emails m, occasional death threats but wasn’t going to change our policy.
I have no issue with trans people generally, but I agree with the earlier replies of ‘can’t have it both ways’. You want me to believe in your deluded idea that you can change your sex, then I’m damned well not going to give you access to women only spaces!
we should be using LGB still, maybe the Q but T isn’t to do with sexuality so I’m still annoyed they’ve hijacked the whole thing!

If this person identifies as male, then they clearly are not a lesbian, and therefore have no place in a group for lesbians. They can’t, as previous posters have said, have it both ways. Either they are biologically female, with the correct pronouns etc, and are attracted to other biological females, in which case they have every right to ask to join a group for lesbians, or they insist they are a man, with a man’s name, beard, pronouns etc, in which case they cannot be a lesbian.

But, but...by the same argument if a man identifies as female and is attracted to women, then you'd have to accept him?

I don't believe that btw. But I have a hard time not accepting a transman as a woman, as I believe in biological reality.
I'm not arguing the OPs decision, at all, obviously the group must do what makes them feel comfortable as lesbians. I just personally count transmen as biologically female, ditto non binary if they were born female. I can't shake the feeling that they may be wanting to join the group as they are questioning? Why else would they refer to themselves as lesbian?

No. You don't even have to get into the politics of it. This person, however they identify, means trouble.

Keep your group together. Otherwise this person and what they present will ruin what harmony you have.

I would be totally against a transman joining a lesbian group. I love the camaraderie, joy and sisterhood of all-lesbian gatherings. Why would I want to be around someone who finds womanhood to be disgusting? I would never get past the woman-hating vibe, even if they internalized it. Lesbians don't have to validate the rest of the world.

I'm presuming they've asked in their employers' LGB++ network meeting if anyone knows a group they could join and the guy whose sister is behind the bar has said, yes, he knows where there's a lesbian/ women's group...

You'd be surprised at the number of transmen who attend women's and lesbian festivals. At LFest one year we camped alongside a group of lesbians who had among their number a bearded masculine-looking 'lesbian'. They were anxious to reassure us that they hadn't smuggled a man in, she was their friend and she was female.

Why do you think they must find womanhood disgusting and be woman-hating?I would be more inclined to think that they had been through some bad experiences as a woman, or had struggled with puberty.
I only know one TM, they are very vulnerable, insecure and admittedly a giant pain in the arse. But not woman hating.

If you define being a lesbian as being female and same-sex attracted then a trans man fits into both of those categories.

A trans woman who is attracted to women fits into neither of the categories.

It is therefore logical (to me) to exclude trans women because they are male.

If you exclude a trans man who is same-sex attracted then the only reason they are being excluded is because they're trans.

I think I would consider it more on the "pain in the arse" aspect than anything else. It's a private group, you don't owe this person anything

The OP explained it very well.

It's about belief. We meet because we all believe in the immutable nature of sex and same-sex attraction. She doesn't believe in that.

This is the point of the group, this is the one characteristic they all have in common and meet to enjoy and celebrate together. As the OP says, there is a group in the area where anyone of any identity will be welcomed.

OP. Sounds as though you've arrived at a very sensible conclusion - the group is for lesbians only and if you don't want to give headspace to a transman - and all that entails in negotiating the whole gender theory of transmen - that is entirely your right within a private group