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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Here we go again! Brighton Police want to interview KJK about a hate crime.

1000 replies

ScreamingMeMe · 21/11/2022 19:02

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SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 10:54

There is room for all. There is a need for all. And some of that Brighton Feminist group say that. They also say, we are just defining our boundaries.

Yes thank you Weary and I agree with this. It would be great to get to a place where women could agree to disagree without the toxic divisions and personal attacks. And no I am not saying Brighton feminists have been blameless in all of this. I don't know how we can get there, I don't have all the answers.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 10:55

And then they were all furious when some women set up the Repeal the GRA website because those women didn't ask permission
I remember the spectacular meltdowns on FB by WPUK adjacent women, about that.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 10:55

I don't know how we can get there, I don't have all the answers.
I think a lot of suggestions have been made on this thread.

Happylittlechicken · 25/11/2022 10:57

Sorry but I’m a bit confused @SapphosRock the Brighton feminists are criticising who KJK talks to and interacts but are working with TRAs behind closed doors. So KJK is upfront who she interacts with, nd that’s bad, but how do we know who Brighton feminists are interacting with? They seem very hypocritical, and honestly, just bullying mean girls. If that’s feminism, they can stick it up their bums. I’d rather not be a feminist and work with KJK. At least she is honest.

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 10:57

Did I read that one or two Brighton Feminists have also taken swipes at Maya and Helen?

That is disappointing. I wonder how much of it is ego centric hurt and how much of it based in reality.

Just to repeat, each of these groups do some great things for women.

However, if you have leadership that is the same people, of course you are going to end up having two groups using the same tactics. Because they have been lauded as great feminists in one group, but then that sin page went too far and exposed the leadership group for the vile bullies they actually are. Then we saw it fully exposed on the Facebook site.

It is the same names. Every time.

It cannot be hidden anymore. And the blame lies with the leadership of both groups. Anyone trying to shift the blame to others is dishonest.

Enough noise has been raised about this now, any leader who does not agree with the tactics being used could have made efforts to at least distance themselves from those who are explicitly doing this or complicit in allowing it happen.

It is NOT disagreement - it is BULLYING behaviour.

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 10:59

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 10:54

There is room for all. There is a need for all. And some of that Brighton Feminist group say that. They also say, we are just defining our boundaries.

Yes thank you Weary and I agree with this. It would be great to get to a place where women could agree to disagree without the toxic divisions and personal attacks. And no I am not saying Brighton feminists have been blameless in all of this. I don't know how we can get there, I don't have all the answers.

Having some honesty about the situation would be a great start.

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:02

Floisme · 25/11/2022 10:39

Hang on... this thread is moving a bit too fast for me but I thought Sappho went to the Brighton event? Didn't you say on one of the post Brighton threads Sappho, that you were there? And if so could presumably have spoken about Sarah's case had you so wished, in whatever way you wished?. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

While I'm here I would just like to make it clear that Sarah has my full support and my best wishes. Bizarre that I feel the need to say that on this board but here we are.

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 11:03

I don't know how we can get there, I don't have all the answers.

Stop lauding bullies as being the ultimate feminists. They are just women who are bullies, who also do some good stuff.

They should not be respected to define feminism today. Call themselves socialist feminists all they want. Their actions against other feminists will live on and could end up being case studies for generations to come.

That is their legacy and they have shaped it themselves.

Floisme · 25/11/2022 11:06

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!
Ok but you went, yes? Or have I misremembered?

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:08

Floisme · 25/11/2022 11:06

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!
Ok but you went, yes? Or have I misremembered?

Yes I went. Unfortunately I couldn't hear any of the women speak over the shouty lot.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 11:21

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!
Why not?

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 11:23

Yes I went. Unfortunately I couldn't hear any of the women speak over the shouty lot.
Were you on the other side with your wife?

DrLouiseJMoody · 25/11/2022 11:30

If JB has donated to the Brighton case, then wouldn't it be straightforward to just say so? Either way, I wish her every success.

It's not just KJK but any woman they consider, for often invented reasons, unacceptable, and when they encounter pushback people are "bullying" or on a "vendetta." The fact is that I took legal action against one of them because nothing else seemed to stop the behaviour (at one point there was a lengthy, emotionally manipulative thread that I had reported someone to the police and I had to prove I did no such thing). The lesson I learned was that some are prepared to ignore abusive behaviour when it is their friend and seek, instead, to demonize anyone who speaks out. They now ignore this because, I suspect, they know it's true and any public denial is simply going to result in me publishing said legal correspondence detailing behaviour that amounted to harassment.

I received messages stating that, if I spoke out, I would be publicly trashed by Julie Bindel, ostracised by WPUK and become persona non grata. I don't know why anyone thought this would work because I just don't care enough for acceptance by a group that are forever policing associations and treating ordinary women as "lesser than." "Head girl" really is not on a par with "thick feck", "domesticated zombie", "poundland Eva Braun" and a whole host of class based insults that essentially say "you're not good enough."

When York removed my status, Kathleen Stock said she could not publicly support because the then Head of Philosophy had invited her to speak about sex and gender. That was my first inkling I was dealing with some very self-serving people who are more concerned with building a brand than helping vulnerable women. If you speak a little too loudly, don't defer, and diverge from approved ways of behaving, you will find yourself lied about and, in my case, two of that crowd phoned Stephanie Hayden to lie I abused my wife (yes, this is actually part of court record - I don't blame SH for using it but do blame the bullies who invaded my case and helped run up bills).

I'm no grand innocent, have personal failings like everyone else, but there are some things you just don't do. It's not merely political with KJK, me, Venice Allan, and others but personal. KJK has reach, influence, charisma and gets things done. I just wish they would also get things done without making performative posts designed to make women choose a side.

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:31

No I wasn't part of the counter protest.

ControversialOpening · 25/11/2022 11:31

This is a very interesting thread, thanks to everyone contributing. It’s good to see women disagreeing without resorting to personal attacks (mostly).

it is starting to make me think of the Judean People’s Front vs People’s Front of Judea:

… which of course leads on to the wonderful ‘symbolic of his struggle against reality clip:

All of this discussion is necessary of course, but also remember that there is more uniting us than separating us.

One last thing: I disagree with lots of what Sappho says on this thread, but I remember that she has proved to be someone who can listen to arguments and change her mind. That’s quite rare.

Right, I’m back off to the Judean Popular Front.

EveEveander · 25/11/2022 11:35

I know a few (not many ) people in Brighton, including a lesbian couple- I only really know one of the couple well- and I was put off arranging a meet up/ asking them to come along because of the anti Posie propaganda I'd seen from some feminists in Brighton. The woman I know is staunchly left wing and I guessed (rightly or wrongly) that she might have been readily persuaded by the smear campaign against SFW
It was a real shame because the women I meet at these events are so easy to spend time with and the voices of those who speak are so important

EmpressaurusOfWitchesBackFromTheDead · 25/11/2022 11:37

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:02

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!

So your wife doesn’t support Sarah Summers’s case or women’s rights in general, presumably. That must make home life quite complicated.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 11:42

All of this discussion is necessary of course, but also remember that there is more uniting us than separating us.
I think actually the opposite is true.

The KJK side of the debate believes women may be from all parts of the political spectrum but can unite on this one issue. They might have very little in common politically otherwise.

The Brighton/ AGCL / WPUK side of the debate believes it's important to agree on all things politically (and have a left wing perspective) before you can be seen to speak for women, and that we shouldn't make alliances across the spectrum as they tarnish us.

Dismissing this difference as Judean People's Front, is a lazy comparison.

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:46

Not really Empress, my wife and I know our views are polar opposite so we don't talk about the Sarah Summers case.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/11/2022 11:49

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 11:42

All of this discussion is necessary of course, but also remember that there is more uniting us than separating us.
I think actually the opposite is true.

The KJK side of the debate believes women may be from all parts of the political spectrum but can unite on this one issue. They might have very little in common politically otherwise.

The Brighton/ AGCL / WPUK side of the debate believes it's important to agree on all things politically (and have a left wing perspective) before you can be seen to speak for women, and that we shouldn't make alliances across the spectrum as they tarnish us.

Dismissing this difference as Judean People's Front, is a lazy comparison.

Yes

we see a lot of

’you can’t be a feminist if you’re not left wing’

’you can’t vote Tory and be a feminist’

and in the US ‘you can’t vote Republican and be a feminist’

for some people politics is all. They’re often not very honest with themselves or others about it, which can make them quite tiring to deal with

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/11/2022 11:51

Again, it’s fine if being left wing is so important to you that you’ll make compromises on women’s rights to maintain your left wing credentials (general you). Just admit to yourself and others that that is what you’re doing

intherminx · 25/11/2022 11:54

I do think that normal women should consider carefully who they donate money to these days.

Very much agree with you on this, I'm not interested in donating to vanity court cases where the prime purpose appears to be to allow the author opportunities to do the rounds of Daily Mail, TalkTV, GBNews etc to promote their book.

MsMcWibble · 25/11/2022 11:55

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 11:02

As I'm married to one of the people who supported the counter protest I don't think that would have worked out well!

This has blown my mind. I cannot imagine being married to anyone who supported the silencing and intimidation of women. Unless, of course, I agreed with them that women should be silenced and intimidated.

TheBiologyStupid · 25/11/2022 11:55

Right, I’m back off to the Judean Popular Front.

Splitter!

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 11:55

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/11/2022 11:51

Again, it’s fine if being left wing is so important to you that you’ll make compromises on women’s rights to maintain your left wing credentials (general you). Just admit to yourself and others that that is what you’re doing

100% this. Which incidentally is all I've ever wanted WPUK to do.

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