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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Here we go again! Brighton Police want to interview KJK about a hate crime.

1000 replies

ScreamingMeMe · 21/11/2022 19:02

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AlisonDonut · 25/11/2022 08:24

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 07:19

@NewLightbulbs

Sarah’s court case next year is going to be really important. If she wins then it will establish women in the UK do have the legal right to single sex spaces.

KJK’s event had little to do with Sarah’s case. Correct me if I’m wrong but AFAIK nobody who took the mic mentioned the case or anything to do with the law surrounding single sex spaces. Sarah herself would not have been able to speak because her anonymity has been court ordered.

If people choose not to support Sarah, or believe Sarah should not be a spokeswoman for women’s rights because some of Sarah’s supporters have vocalised their disagreement with KJK then that is entirely up to them.

It is really sad that women working towards the same end goal have become so divided.

'nobody took the mic'...including you

'sad that women...become so divided' - erm maybe stop posting your bitchy screenshots about a woman that you have been stalking for 4 years?

This fake sadness at how divided people are when you are a good part of the division is cringeworthy.

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 08:27

I am sure the head girl feminists that seem to hate KJK earn more than I do

Sarah wouldn't have been able to bring her case without all the help from the head girl feminists. If people choose not to support her because they feel her case is tainted by the head girl feminists that is entirely their choice.

Datun · 25/11/2022 08:36

If people choose not to support Sarah, or believe Sarah should not be a spokeswoman for women’s rights because some of Sarah’s supporters have vocalised their disagreement with KJK then that is entirely up to them.

Those are two different things, sapphos.

Supporting a woman to sue a rape refuge because she cant access female only recovery doesn't necessarily mean she's someone one would personally want as a spokeswoman for women's rights in general.

Maybe that's not what you meant. But I can root for individuals over their personal circumstances, without wanting them to represent me.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/11/2022 08:36

Are the head girl feminists paying the legal fees then? Or is the principal source for money all the breeders and domestic zombies they hold in such contempt.

EveEveander · 25/11/2022 08:39

@SapphosRock I almost admire your DARVO skills. Near impressive manipulative language.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 08:40

EveEveander · 25/11/2022 08:39

@SapphosRock I almost admire your DARVO skills. Near impressive manipulative language.

I've not been subjected to such obvious attempts at gaslighting since I was married.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 08:41

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/11/2022 08:36

Are the head girl feminists paying the legal fees then? Or is the principal source for money all the breeders and domestic zombies they hold in such contempt.

If as we suspect it's where Bindel's surplus funds went then it's a combination of the two?

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 08:42

Maybe that's not what you meant. But I can root for individuals over their personal circumstances, without wanting them to represent me.

That's exactly what I meant Datun. I can root for KJK in her personal circumstances and hope this ridiculous police investigation doesn't come to anything. I still wouldn't want her to represent me because her views don't reflect mine.

PatsArrow · 25/11/2022 08:43

Ive been reading this whole thread with interest. Like many, I find the whole division between women's groups a bit weird and unsettling. However it's somehow inevitable. All movements split at some point as they grow. I think it becomes febrile as people can sense any kind of success and start jockeying for positions. People become afraid that their part in it won't be acknowledged. People don't like to admit to egos, but we all have them and we all want to be celebrated in some way however small.

I've just had a look at that Facebook page 'Actual leftie gender critical feminists'. I have no idea if this is linked to the Brighton Feminists. Probably not looking at it.

I'm shocked by it. They're obsessed with KJK. Hardly any posts not about KJK get any comments. It's just comment after comment of "I've heard KJK did this/said that". A page full of Chinese whispers. It's honestly unhealthy. Feels simply like a club formed to hate one woman. Leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

All I can say is that I find it a shame that the Brighton feminists couldn't come to take the mic at the S4W event to highlight their local issues.
I was at Bristol. It opened my eyes to just how these things work - women from all local groups came together (I was from the WRN) we all stood together in solidarity as men in black bloc screamed abuse in our faces and threatened us. I listened to some incredible women telling amazing stories. I watched KJK take the most horrendous abuse very close to her face as she walked through a crowd as the police let it happen. She never wavered under any of it, I would have crumbled. My respect for her was sealed from that day.

That's all I have to say really.

Datun · 25/11/2022 08:44

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 08:27

I am sure the head girl feminists that seem to hate KJK earn more than I do

Sarah wouldn't have been able to bring her case without all the help from the head girl feminists. If people choose not to support her because they feel her case is tainted by the head girl feminists that is entirely their choice.

can you point out where someone has said that. Because the post you copied was general, not specific to any case.

i'm not saying it's not about Sarah, just that I cant see that comment.

Floisme · 25/11/2022 08:47

I think I disagree with the idea that Sappho's posts are a derail. I think they're shining a light on the Brighton Feminist scene. Like a lot of strong light, it's not always a flattering one but I'm finding it fascinating.

What I would love to hear more about Sappho, although I don't suppose you can answer, are these very sensitive negotiations you keep referring to that are going on between Brighton Feminists and TRAs. Not because I disagree with them happening - as far as I'm concerned, people should be free to talk to whoever they want - but I would dearly love to know who is involved because I am getting a strong sense that when KJK is accused of 'cosying' up with people who are no friends to women, that there's more than a little hypocrisy going on.

Datun · 25/11/2022 08:47

SapphosRock · 25/11/2022 08:42

Maybe that's not what you meant. But I can root for individuals over their personal circumstances, without wanting them to represent me.

That's exactly what I meant Datun. I can root for KJK in her personal circumstances and hope this ridiculous police investigation doesn't come to anything. I still wouldn't want her to represent me because her views don't reflect mine.

But she hasn't said she represents you.

You are the one conflating supporting Sarah with her being a spokeswoman for women's rights.

Scyla · 25/11/2022 08:50

Sarah’s court case next year is going to be really important. If she wins then it will establish women in the UK do have the legal right to single sex spaces.

The equality act already gives us the legal right.

Sarah's case arose because Brighton services don't agree with the law for ideological reasons and chose not to. The case will consider if this is discrimination.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/11/2022 08:51

@PatsArrow , thank you, you bloody brave woman, for turning up and supporting KJK and the other women at the Bristol rally.

EveEveander · 25/11/2022 08:53

I have met many wonderful women through my engagement with SFW and I'm privileged to call some of them friends. Our views on many issues are varied and we disagree on plenty of things but I have no desire to distance myself from them because 1- we share a common goal that I am willing to prioritise and 2- friendships and even alliances don't work with 100% agreement caveats. I wonder how some people can manage their adult friendships with such narrow requirements.

I am deeply grateful for the work that KJK and the others do; I think her campaigning is very effective. The monstering of her, the constant public disavowing is harming the efforts to keep men out of my daughter's changing rooms and so I will speak up against it when I see it.

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 08:55

If you're not doing it in bad faith, you need to figure out why you're doing it.

I have been genuinely trying to figure this out since the Brighton event across threads now.

Trying to work out if is deliberate dishonesty, just inconsistency, or cognitive distortions. I suspect that if you are in a situation where you are so dependent on the good will of the leadership of the Brighton Feminists and prominent posters of Actual Gender Critical Left Facebook page who are also in published leadership positions for WPUK that the pressure to walk a very narrow line is huge.

That could cause the disconnection between the accusations that are on this thread even and the ‘just disagreements’ too. If those particular people are covering up their bullying with that weak arsed sleight of hand ‘just a disagreement’, when responsible for the fuckoffposie hashtag as an example, then maybe you believe that if they are someone you love.

And I could be very wrong and it is many other reasons.

But the same people in those three groups makes it very clear to me, that of course, Woman’s Place UK would not see their actions towards KJK as ‘bullying’. They see is as ‘disagreement’ and justify their actions that way.

One person has moved on from WPUK who might have been the original source of the page still up on WPUK about KJK, but the others are still there. And have replicated the initial bullying action and gone further on the Brighton Feminists site, now know as ‘the sin page’.

The ‘bullying’ action has been to hypocritically take what KJK says and call it racist and other accusations while ignoring that they are either the same or similar to what Julie Bindel and others in the inner sanctum also say. And to use it to bully KJK.

To reject the disrupter who does things differently to them. Who says things without the nice and civil wrapping. But is saying pretty much the exact thing. KJK is not even taking a harder stance on the issues she and others who write about it, but that the group state is vile enough to put up a sin page. She has just said it plainly without the wrapping of a socialist feminist.

I find dealing with the dissonance in what is happening and what is being said to happen to be exhausting. But knowing who the group behind it all is now, I expect they only will ever accept their mates to accept their narrow and twisted explanations.

However, the accusations need to be addressed because readers will take that misinformation as being accepted if it is not.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will view it as it is in reality. Bullying behaviour.

And a warning about what will happen if anyone says anything that is not carefully curated to fit the diktats of those few people.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 08:55

What I would love to hear more about Sappho, although I don't suppose you can answer, are these very sensitive negotiations you keep referring to that are going on between Brighton Feminists and TRAs.
If these negotiations really exist, and don't just go to another school, I'd put money on them being conducted by the same women who would platform their male transexual "allies".

PatsArrow · 25/11/2022 09:00

Thanks Moirasaggybundles. How could I not? It was on my doorstep. I like to defend my turf 😉

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/11/2022 09:02

What I would love to hear more about Sappho, although I don't suppose you can answer, are these very sensitive negotiations you keep referring to that are going on between Brighton Feminists and TRAs.

Did anyone watch The Wire? These "secret negotiations" put me in mind of rival street gangs having a parlee about who was going to control which bits of the city. The ordinary and unsuspecting public were called "tax payers" who just had to put up with whatever conditions the gangs put into place.

Seriously, sensitive negotiations about what? Why are these people power players, rather than equal citizens with the rest of Brighton residents, living and working within the law? Why are they getting to shape the way this city is run? And if, as Sappho claims, Brighton is the epicentre of TRA activity, why is this being spread across the country whist Brighton feminists "negotiate"?

Datun · 25/11/2022 09:03

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 08:55

What I would love to hear more about Sappho, although I don't suppose you can answer, are these very sensitive negotiations you keep referring to that are going on between Brighton Feminists and TRAs.
If these negotiations really exist, and don't just go to another school, I'd put money on them being conducted by the same women who would platform their male transexual "allies".

Yes, you cant go round platforming AGPs and trying to appease transactivists and then shout about Posie's 'guilt by association'.

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 09:07

I've just had a look at that Facebook page 'Actual leftie gender critical feminists'. I have no idea if this is linked to the Brighton Feminists. Probably not looking at it.

Patsarrow

There seems to be a couple of people common in the three groups (WPUK, Brighton feminists and the FB page) under discussion and perhaps more than a couple between Brighton Feminists and the FB group.

Perhaps we should refer to them as the ‘core leadership group’. Because that seems to be relationship as far as I can see it.

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 09:08

Yes, you cant go round platforming AGPs and trying to appease transactivists and then shout about Posie's 'guilt by association'.
Such as platforming an AGP who wrote schools guidance that says part time cross dressers should be able to use the ladies toilets at staff parties, and that schools should help brainwash children of transitioners.

Helleofabore · 25/11/2022 09:09

Datun · 25/11/2022 09:03

Yes, you cant go round platforming AGPs and trying to appease transactivists and then shout about Posie's 'guilt by association'.

Well… you can. And I assume they have indeed done this.

Why stop with the dishonesty at calling bullying ‘disagreement’?

MoirasSaggyBundles · 25/11/2022 09:10

TinselAngel · 25/11/2022 09:08

Yes, you cant go round platforming AGPs and trying to appease transactivists and then shout about Posie's 'guilt by association'.
Such as platforming an AGP who wrote schools guidance that says part time cross dressers should be able to use the ladies toilets at staff parties, and that schools should help brainwash children of transitioners.

Oh but he's repented now, and the Triggernometry boys assure us he would never venture into a woman's space himself these days. Honest.

FOJN · 25/11/2022 09:14

I'm not sure I have the patience to participate in this thread but I would like to congratulate and thank all the women who are calmly engaging without losing their shit. I'm genuinely full of admiration.

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