Here we go again! Brighton Police want to interview KJK about a hate crime.

[ScreamingMeMe]

I must admit I'm finding all this stuff about 'not of benefit to Brighton' really perplexing; I went to the first protest outside London at Nottingham Speakers' Corner, and I didn't get all irate because KJK didn't lead us to storm the barricades of the Council House only 50 yards away.. I saw the protest as an attempt to expand the reach of protest and the opportunity for women to speak and more importantly make contact with each other outside the usual London suspects. Isn't that enough benefit? I was certainly grateful.

I'm finding the whinging about the SFW Brighton Event not doing what some people/feminists in Brighton wanted, particularly since those people spent all their productive time and energy castigating KJK, the event and some of the women who spoke there, extremely tiresome.

If you want the conversation at a public event to go a certain way and highlight certain issues you need to be part of that event and conversation not high handedly expecting others to do it for you.

It points again to the view that a certain group of feminists consider other women to merely be a resource to do their bidding, speak their words and then donate time and money for the privilege. Arrogant and dismissive all at the same time.

Perhaps those feminists in Brighton who are so annoyed that the subjects/causes/campaigns that they deemed others should have spoken about and highlighted at the SFW Brighton Event could get off their arses and run a similar public event in Brighton to do just that - or is that too much like hard work? Far easier to just snipe on the side lines and bewail that the people who spoke at the SFW event didn't do or say what those feminists deem they should have done.

Stop expecting other people to do what you won't do yourself, stop trying to use other women to take the flak you won't and stop castigating them for saying, No, I'll do and say what I want to, when I want to and where I want to.

It points again to the view that a certain group of feminists consider other women to merely be a resource to do their bidding, speak their words and then donate time and money for the privilege. Arrogant and dismissive all at the same time.

And this is one of the over riding points that really keeps being hand waved away.

But as others have said, to expect that a rally that was open to all and to which many many women from outside Brighton attended as well as residents (who have already posted on this thread and been ignored) to 'benefit' the group in Brighton.... well, why?

I think I even asked upthread why there would ever be this expectation if the group was actively hostile (and for fucks sake, a bullying page linked to a statement denouncing Kellie Jay is abso-fucking-lutely a hostile act) and refused to take part.

Local groups could have taken part and shaped the speeches, they could have had signage that brought attention to local issues. They could have had petitions out ready to sign. They could have done so many pro-active things.

But they didn't.

They posted # fuckoffposie hashtags instead.

As I said before, how fucking childish is the leadership of this group to persist in repeating 'it didn't benefit us' after there performance.

And no. I go to the London events occasionally. And you know fucking what? I bet those events don't directly benefit the residents of London specifically either, except for achieving the overall objective.

To let women speak.

And to meet other women who share their concerns.

Are you honestly saying that women didn't get to speak at Brighton? Are you honestly saying that Brighton feminists were not given the invitation to come and participate? Are you honestly saying that other women did not come and meet others who share their concerns?

It seems to me that it is you who is setting your own objectives for the rally for the organiser to achieve when that was not what the rally was organised for.

While you might be disappointed sappho, your continued posting about how it 'didn't benefit Brighton women' is coming across as belligerence and blame towards Kellie Jay. Whether that is your intention, or not. It also could be read as the common 'it was a joke' bully fall back to post in that tone and then back track but then to bring it up again.

Local groups could have taken part and shaped the speeches, they could have had signage that brought attention to local issues. They could have had petitions out ready to sign. They could have done so many pro-active things.

Yes of course, but KJK's alignment with far right groups and her comments on Muslims, abortion rights and donor conception makes that untenable. Local feminists do not want to be associated with those views. You may think that is arrogant of them, but that's the way it is. Some women have boundaries.

Tbh I am finding the constant whining that local feminists didn't support KJK tiring. It's no secret that she has controversial views, she has been banned from Mumsnet because of them.

Everything Helleofabore just said.

It was open mic, for heaven’s sake. The Brighton Feminists could have talked about whatever they liked. Why did they expect other women to do it for them?

OK, cross-posted. So if women at the event had talked about issues specifically relating to Brighton, would that also have been bad because association?

As we have established, the values of SFW and feminists in Brighton are so fundamentally different it wouldn't work.

So when you complained upthread about KJK not promoting Sarah Summers’s cause etc you didn’t actually mean she should have, ok.

I don’t suppose Daimbars has seen the light yet?

Please explain again to us what it is that KJK has said about 'donor conception' that you disagree with?

Specifically and explicitly where you disagree that woman should be protected from being exploited into donating eggs?

Because I think that you need to start back up your continued accusations on this thread.

You have already shirked responsibility for any analysis about the 'racist' remarks and told us that you have just taken WPUK's word that Kellie Jay was racist and that Julie Bindel and other prominent feminists saying effectively the same thing are not.

So, let's get it all out please.

What is it that KJK has said about the potential to exploit another woman's body for egg donation do you disagree with?

Do you agree that some women around the world are being exploited for their eggs, just as they are exploited for their ability to develop another life in their bodies?

Do you think that any woman should be coerced emotionally, financially or in any way to go through a procedure so another person can procure eggs for that person's own use?

Are they really that different? Or is the difference manufactured and exaggerated?

Nothing K-JK has said that's caused the monstering hasn't already been said by established feminists, including your beloved Bindel.

Only when K-J says it is it bad.

Because the link was so many pages ago, this is the link for any readers just joining now.

brightonsisters.wordpress.com/differences-of-opinion-between-bwlc-and-kellie-jay-keen/

This is what Sappho is referring to when she discusses what the Brighton Feminists believe KJK's believes.

I will look for the links that I posted on other threads that shows that many of these 'beliefs' are also held and written about by feminists who Brighton Feminists and WPUK embrace.

I think it is important that readers of this thread at least have starting points for their own further research and analysis and remember that many of these points have been stripped of their context.

Do we have to go through this again Helleofabore?

I respect KJK's right to be totally opposed to donor conception. She must accept her views will alienate many women, particularly lesbians who have used donor conception to conceive.

It's no secret that she has controversial views, she has been banned from Mumsnet because of them.
Do you have receipts for her being banned from here due to "controversial views" because it's very easy to get banned from here without expressing views that the majority of us would find "controversial".

Just to be clear sappho

Yesterday you said:

SapphosRock · Yesterday 11:19
Datun - as I said yesterday I have no criticisms of KJK.

Now you have written this amongst other posts.

"KJK's alignment with far right groups and her comments on Muslims, abortion rights and donor conception makes that untenable."

These are accusations that you have just made against KJK.

Your wording :

"Yes of course, but KJK's alignment with far right groups and her comments on Muslims, abortion rights and donor conception makes that untenable. Local feminists do not want to be associated with those views. You may think that is arrogant of them, but that's the way it is. Some women have boundaries."

This reads very clearly to me that this is you making these accusations as well as the Brighton Feminists. Otherwise, you would have worded this much differently.

Either way, you cannot continue to say you are not making accusations or criticisms. Because I think you are trying to have it both ways. I think you are fully aware that you are criticising and accusing her, but want to continue to deny it.

You have stated you believe she has done the things that are on that page. Therefore you are accusing her/ criticising her of those things as well.

It is just dishonest to continue to say you have no criticisms when you most clearly do.

Yes Sappho. We do have to go through it again.

Because you have just made, or endorsed at the very kindest, an accusation about her based on a very bad faith, extreme bad faith, interpretation of what she has said.

What is it that KJK has said about the potential to exploit another woman's body for egg donation do you disagree with?

Do you agree that some women around the world are being exploited for their eggs, just as they are exploited for their ability to develop another life in their bodies?

Do you think that any woman should be coerced emotionally, financially or in any way to go through a procedure so another person can procure eggs for that person's own use?

This is you chance to clear this dishonesty up.

Please do not hide behind :

I respect KJK's right to be totally opposed to donor conception. She must accept her views will alienate many women, particularly lesbians who have used donor conception to conceive.

Because if you want other women to be exploited in this way, at least own it.

No Helleofabore, disagreeing with someone is not criticising them.

Are you disagreeing with me now or criticising me?

The whining is coming from you Sappho that KJK's event did not meet your proscribed view of what it should have done.

Brighton Feminists and you didn't want to be involved, fair enough, you can't then moan that the event didn't highlight your particular causes or campaigns.

It was and still is unnecessary to deride those who did attend and speak and then expect those people on the receiving end of your and Brighton Feminists shunning to speak on subjects you want them to and fund your causes.

And stop with the smug superiority of some women have boundaries painting those who attended as women who don't.

The criticising of her comes from the way she is treated Sappho. And the dishonesty in the way she is being portrayed.

We can disagree about it, but I think you should be very honest about just what you are supporting and what you are not.

And if that is a criticism of you, then so be it.

Re the donor conception, she says she is totally opposed to donor conception immediately after speaking about gay marriage. Of course this means she is opposed to lesbian couples using donor conception to conveive.

She then expresses her distaste for IVF which is alienating for women who have had IVF.

Caveat, this is not a criticism I simply disagree with her.

Sappho do you have to agree with everyone on everything before you speak to them or enter a room with them?

It seems quite childlike behaviour. And you seem a bit obsessed with her every move. Do you need to take a break from her or something?

Me? I support women's rights and will back campaigns that support women. I don't think I have been dishonest about that

Was Daimbars banned for having controversial views or for being a goady fucker?

What are you suggesting Tinsel?

LangCleg was banned from Mumsnet for holding the line on safeguarding and refusing to back down on it. So your snide dig about KJK's controversial views being the reason for her ban from MN is just that a snide dig to further paint her as the devil incarnate.

That is ok.

On the previous thread you told us that you and the Brighton Feminists interpreted this to be about sperm donation. When there ARE issues around sperm donation and the child of that donation having the rights to know their parentage, I think it is pretty clear that that is not what KJK was referring to.

It is my belief that the Brighton Feminists have added this 'sin' in when it was in fact commentary about donor eggs being used.

This is an 'absolutist' tactic that the Brighton Feminists have used. And yes, Sappho, I do judge any female, regardless of sex, who may exploit another female for an egg or to carry an infant. If it can be absolutely proven that the egg is freely donated, it is a very different story. But even a loving donation can be subject to emotional coercion.

And it is not uncommon for other feminists, approved ones too, to be listening to the children of IVF and beginning discussion around it based on the needs of those children.

I think you will find it hard to convince other feminists that KJK deserves to be monstered for her stance on this.

Sperm donors and an arrangement where children are able to access that sperm donor to have questions answered etc is not the issue here. As I have been very clear about in the past.

Wanking into a cup does not have the list of risks such as stroke, and loss of ovaries or loss of donor's own reproductive ability and it is very dishonest for any group to twist it as such.

I am explaining this for the reader's benefit here.

Because the accusations from the sin page need to be addressed and not simply repeated here.