Are they really this delusional? *trigger warning - thread mentions suicide*

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I was reading this thread

www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/yvt4ru/how_should_men_respond_to_transphobic_feminists/

and I just couldn’t believe these people are serious!
How can someon be this far gone?
Where do they base their beliefs on?

Or misgendering? Not sure whether every time someone calls me 'cis' would be reportable as a hate crime but if so, given the number of people who feel entitled to do that on mumsnet (I'm not because I don't have a gender identity) then the police are going to be very, very busy.

I would always like in reading the reports of those crimes, information on how many people made those reports, as I suspect in some categories an awful lot of the statistics are generated by a small pool of repeated reporters.

It becomes difficult - as this thread illustrates - to be sympathetic without being cynical and asking many questions, or becoming sceptical about recorded information, as this political movement has abused process and fogged categories and seriousness. The impact is that people are becoming compassion fatigued from experience of realising the actual reality behind the information they had good will towards.

What was interesting is that the year before the trans hate crimes was about 40 or so and loads of media outlets publicised the percentage increase which sounds horrific NOT the actual figures which compared to racial hate crimes are small and pathetic. The Most Oppressed TM are NOT

I don’t understand how someone can be killed because they are trans, but the police have no idea that the victim was trans. Surely the police would talk to the victim’s friends and family and anyone else that they may have been involved with or interacted with before their death. They would look at the person’s house, belonging and phone and internet history. The corner would notice any gender surgeries and note if the person was taking hormones.

i can’t imagine that the police are so incompetent that they are missing a wave of murders of trans people.

But I think there were 84 trans hate crimes last year in Scotland which has a population of 5.295 million.

We don't even know it that was 84 separate incidents, since afaik one incident can generate 84 reports and they will be recorded as separate incidents.

This

i can’t imagine that the police are so incompetent that they are missing a wave of murders of trans people.

Quite.

It's the usual nonsense transactivism.

Frighten the life out trans people to get them to self victimise. Make them scared of the people who want them out of their spaces - rape survivors, female prison inmates, sportswomen, and feminists. Make them so convinced everyone wants to kill them, that they actually buy into the utterly insane notion of genocide.

Then make absolutely certain that trans people's trans status isn't recorded anywhere. Including the Equal Treatment Benchbook, IPSO guidelines, newspaper reporting, crime statistics, the actual census, and in fact anywhere there's a tick box. Transactivists go out of their way to obscure a trans status absolutely anywhere it might matter. I wonder why that could possibly be?

Then they come on here and say there's probably loads of violent crimes committed against trans people, but 'how would we evah knowwww??'

Again, reinforcing the idea that it's really dangerous to be trans. But not wanting to do the first fucking thing about it, because it's an awful lot more dangerous for other people if crimes were recorded, and dealt with, by sex, and not gender identity.

Apart from anything else, if there was even the whiff of someone being killed for being trans, every transactivist in the country would be on it. It's grim as fuck.

I don’t understand how someone can be killed because they are trans, but the police have no idea that the victim was trans.

And this, of course. ^

Being trans doesn't require taking hormones or altering your appearance in any way, though. The two may coincide, but equally some people say it's transphobic to think that having a particular gender means you need to look a certain way or undergo medical treatment.

Eughhhhhhh

"If you aren't familiar with the issues, it's often best to keep a neutral stance outwardly. E.g.:
"I think the issue of medical transitions for trans youth is best left to medical and mental health professionals."
"I don't know enough about sports science to argue about trans women in women's sports. I think it's best to leave that to sports organizations to decide what they want to do about that."

I've seen a bit of this sneakery about.
Green, in her defence of Mermaids was all.... leave it to the medical professionals.

If you see this, it's easily countered with a I TOTALLY AGREE. READ THE CASS REVIEW.

Again with sports.
I totally agree.
Take for example, World Rugby who looked at both sides of the medical,
scientific, legal and ethical case for mixed sex sport, and decided it was unfair and dangerous to women:
www.world.rugby/news/563437/landmark-world-rugby-transgender-workshop-important-step-towards-appropriate-rugby-specific-policy

We aren't monsters just cos your arguments are shit.

“Being trans doesn't require taking hormones or altering your appearance in any way, though. The two may coincide, but equally some people say it's transphobic to think that having a particular gender means you need to look a certain way or undergo medical treatment.”

I know. But if a trans person’s presentation matches their natal sex and none of their friends, family, colleagues know that they are trans. Their social media and internet history makes no mention of their trans identity, how would their killer know they are trans?
It would be incredibly unlucky that the one person who know someone is trans kills them because of it. And then, if caught, never gives the police a motive for the killing.

It may be the case the some people who identify as trans, but have kept it a total secret, have been murdered. But I don’t think it will have been because of their identity.

Absolutely. Which is why we need a clear definition of what trans is in order to begin to test the hypothesis that it's a motive in murders, or whether it's e.g. transsexual people in particular that are at risk.

If people are unable to, or refuse to, try and drill down into what the risk factors are, data will continue to be flaky and unreliable.

We're into the territory of if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there does it make a sound.

We cannot possibly start worrying about how many TQ+ deaths are potentially being missed because the person was entirely internally TQ+, had never told anyone, had nothing on their computer or social life- we keep being told about 'living as a woman' being the act of transubstantiation to turn someone male into a woman. If someone is not in any way living as TQ+ to what extent are they really, provably TQ+ to justify a lot of created tragedy about them possibly being missed off the statistics?

And how is it relevant that someone internally questioning TQ+ but not acting on it be recorded as someone TQ+ on statistics? Obvs their death would have had nothing whatever to do with being TQ+. If we're having to scrape the barrel to this extent to try and justify the idea of there being a dreadful, tragic lack of recording of a group, then it isn't much of a problem, is it?

This is a really grim conversation. One of those I find myself looking in disbelief that it's actually necessary to say this stuff.

Very weird line of argument being used here when GC organisations have literally sued the government to get accurate data collection. And the failure of the police to collect accurate data on crime statistics (especially re the perpetrators) is the subject of many threads on here. GC people want accurate data.

It’s also very odd to posit that there are some cases of trans people being murdered or committing suicide that aren’t known about. The “trans community” publicises cases of trans people being victimised very heavily. If a trans person was murdered in the UK the entire Internet would become rapidly aware of it, even if the police somehow failed to notice.

In the US transgender people are less likely to be victims of homicide than the overall rates. Some evidence:

A study for 2010-2014, using proper analyses which shows that the rate for transgender people is less than the average rate. I believe the author of the study is transgender.

We in the Midst of a Transgender Murder Epidemic?Free Thought Lives A Quillette article from 2019 doing calculations on the basis of recorded numbers of homicide victims and overall estimated population sizes. So rough figures.

I did the same for 2021 figures in the US and the results show that the overall rate is between two and three times higher than the transgender deaths-from-homicides rate that is created if the data collected by the Human Rights Campaign is related to the transgender population size in the US.

So even if trans victims are under-counted it is not likely that they are at greater risk than the average person, though some sub-groups certainly are, such as black trans women in sex work, though the excess risk factors there may also be related to race or to working in a dangerous occupation (the murder rate of women sex workers is high).

More on the UK in this Critic article.

On that Reddit thread: It seems to have almost no understanding of what being gender critical means. The idea of a gender identity is simply accepted there as the basis for defining what men and women (and neither) are, and there's no questioning about how that would affect the major role of feminism which was to fight sex-based oppression.

I found it fascinating how being a TERF was equated with being someone who defines 'woman' as exactly the same as the female biological role and nothing more! In reality gender critical feminism accepts that biological sex is a real thing and sometimes must be taken into account in societies, say (in reproduction, sexual crimes, sports), but that sex has been and still is used as an argument to keep women subjugated.

One way of achieving the latter is through gender roles, norms and stereotypes, and because of this function of 'gender' gender critical feminists are wary of it, and also then wary of the idea that someone's gender subjective gender identity should determine whether they are women or not.

Gender critical feminism, in my view, accepts that biological sex sometimes matters, but keeps a critical eye on how sex-based arguments are used. When it comes to 'gender' the gender critical opinion mostly is that people should not be limited by gender roles or norms and that most of what seems to be called 'gender' now that is not directly harmful gender stereotypes are attempts to codify personalities into just a few bundles.

I think we can all agree that men with a trans identity are not being murdered at the same rates as women (2-3 per week. UK figures. Killed by men). So why are trans identifying men and their allies insisting that trans identifying men are the "most vulnerable"? It just is not true in the UK.

And this makes me very angry. That women's deaths at the hands of men are so discounted that they are meaningless, they are normal. The frequent deaths of women at the hands of men, the normal abuse of women at the hands of men, is just background noise and discounted

But trans-identified men, even though not one got murdered in at least five years in UK, are still, somehow, claiming, "Most vulnerable." status.

Bollocks.

I think that's disgusting, the reversal that they try to employ here, that even though 2-3 women get killed each week by men; the real victims in society at the moment are men who get "misgendered" as he/him.

Bollocks.

It is also possible to search the National Case Review Repository for evidence of "trans child suicides", ie. under 18 years old. I could not find any.

Suicide: learning from case reviews
Summary of risk factors and learning for improved practice around suicide
2014

Risk factors for suicide identified in case reviews
Suicide is rarely triggered by a single event. It is the result of an accumulation of
adversities over time. Issues often referred to in cases included:
• bereavement, including family history of suicide
• history of abuse
• exposure to domestic violence
• parental mental health problems
• parental alcohol or substance misuse
• breakdown of relationships with family or boy/girlfriend
• lack of stable accommodation or consistent source of care
• copycat suicides
• social isolation
• bullying
• mental health problems including depression
• behaviour disorders including attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
• risk taking including drug or alcohol misuse, criminal behaviour and underage
sexual activity
• lack of parental control and boundaries
• perceived or actual pressure to achieve
• financial worries.
learning.nspcc.org.uk/media/1354/learning-from-case-reviews_suicide.pdf

National case review repository
The national case review repository, launched in November 2013, is the most comprehensive collection of case reviews in the UK. It provides a single place for published case reviews to make it easier to access and share learning at a local, regional and national level.

The repository has over 1,500 serious case reviews from England, Scotland and Wales, and thematic analysis reports from all four nations dating back to 1945. The collection also includes case reviews published anonymously on behalf of Safeguarding Children Partnerships.

Our information specialists write abstracts and add keywords to each report in the repository to enable professionals to find case reviews on particular themes and issues.

You can access case review reports via our online Library catalogue. We also hold physical reference copies of all case reviews in the NSPCC Library.

We encourage safeguarding partners in England and their equivalents in the other nations to submit newly published case review reports
learning.nspcc.org.uk/case-reviews/national-case-review-repository

Search the National Case Review Depository
library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/search2?CookieCheck=44885.8529520602&&LabelText=Case%20review&searchterm=*&Fields=@&Media=SCR&Bool=AND

Search Term "transgender": one case review (not a suicide, mother and mother's partner both identify as transgender)

library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/search2?searchterm=transgender&Fields=%40&Media=SCR&Bool=AND

2017 - Child I1: serious case review [full overview report].
Manchester Safeguarding Children Board

Abstract
Neglect of three siblings aged 0-1, 5 and 3 years, who were removed from mother and mother's partner in December 2015. The family had been known to children's services since April 2013, after moving to Manchester from the south of England six months earlier. There were 4 children in the family at the time. Home conditions were poor, and the children had complex needs. Father moved out with two of the siblings in March 2014. In April 2014 the children became subject to child protection plans under the category of neglect. An initial child protection conference was held in September 2014 in respect of the unborn child (Child I1), the child of mother and mother's partner. Mother's partner is described as a transgender person and identifies themselves as female. Mother identifies as male. In May 2015 the children were removed from the child protection plan but continued to receive support under a Children in need plan. In December 2015 ChildI1 and siblings were removed from the home following an unannounced visit by a social worker.

Methodology:
a systems methodology approach focusing on multi-agency professional practice. Findings include: there was a fixed and overly optimistic view of the case by some of the professionals; at times the parents' needs received more professional attention than those of the children; professionals did not always feel confident in their responses to some of the issues, particularly around gender roles and transgender issues.

Recommendations include:
the voice and daily lived experience of the child should be the primary focus of all agency interventions; agencies should work closely together in cases of long term neglect, especially if there is concern about disguised compliance.

Search Term "dysphoria": zero case reviews

Search Term "gender identity": one case review

2022 Thematic child safeguarding practice review – child and adolescent mental health (Young Person H and others)
Ealing Safeguarding Children Partnership

Abstract
Review of three cases involving adolescent self-harm, including a young person who attempted suicide in 2021.

Themes include:
professional fears around challenging conversations with young people on self-harm being rooted in a fear of making situations worse; if foster carers are equipped and supported when taking on a young person who self-harms; issues around risk management plans and working collaboratively to find the best support for a young person; issues of working across boundaries, including young people being registered for services in a different borough and in relation to child and adolescent mental health service (CAMHS) provision; if therapeutic interventions are focused enough on the impact of adverse childhood experiences; lack of knowledge or experience in discussing gender identity with young people.

Recommendations include:
review working practices to improve the confidence and ability of practitioners to have difficult conversations that focus on mental health; adolescents are able to have agency over their own risk management plans; training on gender identity and what this means for young people; support parents struggling with self-harming behaviour; support the training of foster carers in understanding self-harm and risk management; the young person and their parent/carer have continued access to a CAMHS clinician regardless of where they are living; agree a mechanism for managing risk across agencies; ensure gender identity is a key strand of equality action planning across all agencies.

library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/retrieve2?SetID=BA8A8178-C3EB-42D4-95CE-361CC79A88A8&searchterm=gender%20identity&Fields=%40&Media=SCR&Bool=AND&SearchPrecision=20&SortOrder=Y1&Offset=1&Direction=%2E&Dispfmt=F&Dispfmt_b=B27&Dispfmt_f=F13&DataSetName=LIVEDATA

(extract from the full review)

Thematic Child Safeguarding Practice Review – Child and Adolescent Mental Health
(Young Person H and others)

Introduction
This review was conducted to consider three cases involving adolescent self harm, occurring in close time proximity to each other; alongside young people involved in the Partnership reporting the daily struggles of young people with their mental health. This led us to the view that reviewing the cases would promote further improvement and learning. Only on of the cases met the criteria for a Rapid Review as defined in the Guidance, however, a Rapid Review was convened in a second case that, while not meeting the criteria, provoked
a high level of professional anxiety regarding the ability to manage risk

The common features of the self-harm cases
• All three were born female
• All three highlighted issues around gender identity
• All three have alleged being sexually abused
• All three became looked after by the local authority

library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/filetransfer/2022EalingYoungPersonHThematicReview.pdf?filename=CC18C70DB7C8C3D49403BB94EB176F95207E5F66235DCA89651F5ED2BA2CCB261D33683E379C502D8F98C413A760A64810BAEC6354752389A1DC165326D639376DCF6EAF1D48DD6BBEA9C91C7543351BB8ADB781C870B89DFA6E050475&DataSetName=LIVEDATA

Search Term "gender": 19 case reviews (only one mentions "gender identity")

library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/search2?searchterm=gender&Fields=%40&Media=SCR&Bool=AND

2017 Serious case review: Siblings W and X [full overview report]
library.nspcc.org.uk/HeritageScripts/Hapi.dll/filetransfer/2017BrightonAndHoveSiblingsWAndXOverview.pdf?filename=CC18C70DB7C8C3D49403BB94EB176F95207E5F66235DCA89651F5ED2BA5DA9311A353B626FC51241A3DF9A45C047A65218BCD0585251208C9DDA036410C9323E738F79B82C3D97339C36B9884782EE6DE631344BF480AF0227C343A0446E97A42ADDA35E17726F8B4F751380B9&DataSetName=LIVEDATA
Low self-esteem and links with racism and bullying
6.7.10 Links between low self-esteem and troubled (and troublesome) behaviour in adolescence are widely recognised in the literature on child development. This links to the difficulties professionals face working with children who have long standing experiences of trauma, as discussed in finding 1.
6.7.11 The impact of low self-esteem has wide ranging effects on all aspects of children's development, including increasing the child's vulnerability to exploitation by others through all means including the internet.
Data from survey of pupils
6.7.12 The Brighton & Hove Safe and Well at School Survey (SAWSS) is an anonymous online survey conducted annually by primary and secondary schools during lesson time. It has been undertaken for the last 7 years. The 2015 survey involved 9206 young people aged 11-16 years old. Its main findings were that:
 There has been a significant fall in pupils saying they have been bullied - from
26% in 2005 to 14% in 2015; it is thought this reflects the work undertaken in
schools.
 The most common forms of bullying were verbal bullying, associated with
appearance
 Those most likely to suffer bullying (in this survey) are those receiving extra
help at school and those who do not identify with the gender they were
assigned at birth
 83% of students reported ‘my school helps me to get on with others including
people from different religious and cultural backgrounds’, but this dropped
from 88% in 11-12 year olds to 78% in 15-16 year olds

You would have to scale these numbers to properly compare them. You'd also have to be clear whether you are talking about women in the identity sense or female in the biological sense though some people say that mentioning biological female is transphobic. Which just obscures this fact rather than changes it. Your point still stands of course. No massaging of the data can actually make TW look the most vulnerable.

And as per @suggestionsplease1 stated do not consistently record the specific transgender identity of victims.

Trans organisations do though, and so we have numbers from them.

Our assertion is that it is a myth that TW are at less risk of violence than women in the U.K.

And it's a completely nonsensical one. There is evidence which shows that MTF trans people are at less risk of murder than the population as a whole. They aren't women, so the comparison should really be with other male people, but I think it holds true for both, given that it is such a tiny number of murdered trans people by all evidence available, the most complete of which is that collected by trans activist groups who often include deaths which aren't even confirmed murders.

The way you are looking at it, there may also be a pink teapot in orbit around the sun, too. Still, you tried.