Are they really this delusional? *trigger warning - thread mentions suicide*

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I was reading this thread

www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/yvt4ru/how_should_men_respond_to_transphobic_feminists/

and I just couldn’t believe these people are serious!
How can someon be this far gone?
Where do they base their beliefs on?

Your other sources have nothing to do with TW victims of violent crimes.

This page, which I previously linked, literally goes into detail on the 7 TW victims of homicide (a violent crime, I'm sure you'll agree) transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/16/trans-homicides-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers/

My assertion is the existence of the myth on this thread that TW are less likely to be victims of violence than women. It is impossible to know because the gender identity of victims are not being recorded in the U.K. The statement that TW are more likely to kill than be killed is also a myth, for the exact same reason.

There is no other assertion.

The real question is why are certain groups (that you have expressed support for) fighting so hard against the idea that the police and authorities should additionally record the transgender identity of victims of violence along with the data they currently gather?

The claim that police can only record sex or gender is baseless. It’s just one more data point. Why are these groups afraid of whatever truths gathering this data might reveal?

And here's the ONS data for England and Wales: www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2018#which-groups-of-people-are-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-violent-crime

As I said in my previous comment, if you count tw as a subset of males, then yes they are more likely to be victims of certain kinds of violence, because males in general are. There are no figures specifically for TW, which suggests it's not a significant issue as they're not showing up in the numbers (OR it's not being recorded - see below). And we can also logically deduce from the very low murder rates that this population is not significantly at risk.

If it's the case that it's a failure to record, then I think this would be a good issue for TRAs to lobby on. I would support a campaign to accurately record the sex and self-identified gender of both victims and perpetrators of crimes. Please let me know which organisations are pushing for this so I can support.

This is merely someone posting a few news articles. It’s rather like claiming that only 27 women are murdered in the U.K. each year by Googling “ woman murdered U.K.” and then adding up the news reports in a date range. Its not a statistic on total TW victims of homicide.

It does however irrefutably disprove your initial claim of
The evidence we have clearly shows that TW are not being murdered, basically, at all in the UK.

Only takes 1 murder of a TW to disprove there are no murders of TW “at all in the U.K.”

"As I said in my previous comment, if you count tw as a subset of males, then yes they are more likely to be victims of certain kinds of violence, because males in general are. There are no figures specifically for TW, which suggests it's not a significant issue as they're not showing up in the numbers (OR it's not being recorded - see below). And we can also logically deduce from the very low murder rates that this population is not significantly at risk.

If it's the case that it's a failure to record, then I think this would be a good issue for TRAs to lobby on. I would support a campaign to accurately record the sex and self-identified gender of both victims and perpetrators of crimes. Please let me know which organisations are pushing for this so I can support."

This👆

@beastlyslumber
If it's the case that it's a failure to record, then I think this would be a good issue for TRAs to lobby on. I would support a campaign to accurately record the sex and self-identified gender of both victims and perpetrators of crimes. Please let me know which organisations are pushing for this so I can support.

I am genuinely glad to hear this. I too want accurate data. We don’t know if it is an issue or not unless we record the transgender identity of victims. It would be prudent to do so as hate crimes (including ones that involve violent assault on the person), have been increasing significantly against all transgender people as a whole in the U.K.. But how many of these are TW or TM or NB?

I hope you are not accused of being a TRA for just wanting data collected to find out the truth.

And we can also logically deduce from the very low murder rates that this population is not significantly at risk.

This is true of all of us in the U.K., it’s all about relative risk. But it is worth noting we are a very safe country when compared to the global averages.

I hope you are not accused of being a TRA for just wanting data collected to find out the truth.

Thanks. I'm more often accused of being a transphobic bigot for wanting this.

Only takes 1 murder of a TW to disprove there are no murders of TW “at all in the U.K.”

True, I was speaking colloquially. I shall try to be more careful in future so the discussion doesn't get derailed again.

Not significantly at risk compared to the general population. I.e. nowhere near the risk of being a female murdered by a male.

I hope you are not accused of being a TRA for just wanting data collected to find out the truth.

I think you'll find that many of us would like to get accurate data. It's not a TRA position.

@Onnabugeisha

I read all your posts last night and I've read your posts today. Now obviously I can only speak for myself but I would like to clear up a few things as you seem to think the people on here are acting as one transphobic entity who are trying to deny trans people the right to exist.

I am not transphobic I am happy for everyone to do what they have to do to be as happy as they possibly can be in their own skin. I cannot imagine the pain someone must go through existing in a body that feels wrong.

I would love some robust data on how many trans identifying people are victims of of assault and murder and suicide etc.

I support transpeople rights not to be subjected to discrimination, intimidation and fear.

I don't support people born male claiming they are now female.

I certainly don't support people born male, no matter how they identify, coming into female single sex spaces.

I don't support the erasure of woman down to just a feeling.

I don't support being a woman being all about the urge to put on a frilly blouse on and make up.

And I don't support being informed that a person can go from girl mode to boy mode by just removing their high heels.

I will stand beside and support any trans organisation that is for progressing the rights of trans people WITHOUT trampling over the rights of women. If a TW doesn't feel safe in the gents then that issue needs to be addressed. The answer isn't let them in the ladies it's educate the rest of the males in the world that it's OK for a man, no matter how they present, to go in the gents.I

And you do a lot of moaning about the statistics other posters put up yet don't seem too forthcoming with any robust data from your side of the argument. If that data isn't there that's not the fault of the people in this board.

Boiled

Oh the bloke didn't have a beard but I'm working on the basis it was invisible at that particular moment.

Probably identified as having a beard tho?

“Puberty blockers aren’t hormones or surgery” according to one wise poster 🙄

Google says:
Puberty blocker medications contain stable amounts of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogs, which help suppress sex hormones like testosterone and estrogen. Once these hormones are “blocked,” the physical changes that would occur during puberty are paused. Goserelin (Zoladex®). Histrelin (Supprelin®LA).10 Jan 2022

I too would support absolute stringent data collection criteria particularly for crimes:

Biological sex (not legal fiction sex) of both perpetrator and victim
Whether one or both of the above are trans identifying

It would stop the latest debacle of sex crimes committed on females being recorded as females committing the crimes because the male perpetrator wants his 'gender' or 'gender identity' recorded and not his sex and submissive police and the justice system going along with it.

Indeed, let's make it 100% clear then whatever it proves we can all accept, @Onnabugeisha.

It might even go some way to stopping the utter horror show that is placing male sex offenders in the female prison estate.

The sticking point is of course that Stonewall et al know that this fatally undermines the TWAW mantra and are afraid of what the figures will accurately record.

I'm in complete agreement @Boiledbeetle 👏

Every time people try and do research into any of the following:

• Actual rates of crime committed against trans people.
• Actual rates of crime committed by trans people.
• Detransition rates and reasons.
• Long term health implications of trans medical interventions (hormones, blockers and surgeries).
• Mental health outcomes medium and long term of trans people comparing with and without medical intervention.

They are derided as transphobic for attempting the research. Such proposed studies have been blocked in the past.

It's the trans activists who stop this research. Not feminists.

Indeed. Of those persons clearly identified as trans, more have been killers than have been murdered. Of course, in some instances a TW was the killer having murdered another TW.

Well regarding your final paragraph:

"And you do a lot of moaning about the statistics other posters put up yet don't seem too forthcoming with any robust data from your side of the argument. If that data isn't there that's not the fault of the people in this board."

In particular the assertion that "If the data isn't there that's not the fault of the people on this board"

There are people on this board who do not believe / agree with trans identity. There are posts from people saying that there is no such thing as a trans child.

If anyone so minded was contacted in the horrific circumstances that their next of kin, who self- identified as trans, had lost their life, would that relative assert that trans identity to the police or coroner? If they don't agree with trans identity why would they do this? And how do their actions at this time play into the collection of data on this topic?

And yes, there are broader circumstances, police could explore further with friends and other social contexts, but next of kin and family submissions and requests often take precedence.

It is such a very silly thing to say isn't it? Many, many men have rejected the dogma of patriarchy but they do it without invading women's spaces. There is nothing to suggest that men who 'present as women', whatever that means, are more likely to have rejected the dogma of patriarchy. Plus this statement does not stand up to any basic scrutiny or we'd not have videos of TW wanking in ladies loos, or assaulting women in prisons etc.

"I think it's ignorant and offensive to suggest that men are inherently dangerous to women because of their biology." It is fascinating to see the baseless origins of men's right supremacist arguments. I'm not sure anyone has any definitely said that men are dangerous to women because of their biology? Gender stereotypes and male entitlement are clearly relevant. What is ignorant is to be so up your own arse that you can't even listen to what women are saying!

This thread is LOL stupid.

@suggestionsplease1 "In particular the assertion that "If the data isn't there that's not the fault of the people on this board"

There are people on this board who do not believe / agree with trans identity. There are posts from people saying that there is no such thing as a trans child. "

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

If anyone so minded was contacted in the horrific circumstances that their next of kin, who self- identified as trans, had lost their life, would that relative assert that trans identity to the police or coroner? If they don't agree with trans identity why would they do this? And how do their actions at this time play into the collection of data on this topic?

If the police asked and I had a NoK who identified with gender stereotypes that strongly, why on earth would I not say they identified as trans? I don't have to agree with an identity to state that the other person did though actually what I disagree with is that being a TW means you are a woman. I'd happily volunteer that they were a TW.

Why would someone gender critical refuse to state that someone was a transwoman? What they wouldn't say was that this transwoman was an actual woman.

If you read the rest of my post the potential consequences of this stance to the collection of data on trans deaths / suicides are stated.

If you don't believe or agree with trans identity, if you think there is no such thing as a trans child, and you are then in the horrific circumstances of a closely related family member who is trans identified losing their life - do you assert that trans identity to police?