Are they really this delusional? *trigger warning - thread mentions suicide*

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I was reading this thread

www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/yvt4ru/how_should_men_respond_to_transphobic_feminists/

and I just couldn’t believe these people are serious!
How can someon be this far gone?
Where do they base their beliefs on?

It can't be all ways though.

It can't be that it's a problem to NOT have that evidence but also for it to be a problem to seek to collect that evidence.

And somehow all this is the fault of female people who don't consent to having their rights removed by male people.

@suggestionsplease1 and still not down to individual members of this board that nationally the figures of crimes committed towards our by trans people aren't recorded properly.

It's not up to us on here wether we agree with trans or not to ensure the data collection for that group is carried out.

What I don't want is the stats for women getting mixed in with crimes committed on or against men pretending/thinking to be women women

If you want a robust argument on which group i's the most hard done by then campaign for better statistics don't harangue those on here who are having to work with whatever robust data they can get their hands on.

It's a bizarre suggestion and has the air of a distraction and obfuscation technique.

Well, looks like the question in the thread's title got answered...

@TheBiologyStupid 😆😆😆

Yes, we have posters who decided to come and show us that yes, yes they are that delusional.

@Boiledbeetle Totally agree with your earlier post - I won't quote the whole thing!

I think those pushing gender ideology have done a huge amount to undermine transpeople's rights. They have stoked a debate which causes transpeople to feel under attack and pushes this ridiculous narrative that hoards of middle aged women are suddenly consumed with hatred for this one particular group of people.

Gender ideologists are promoting a lie that biological sex does not exist/ is a social construct/ is not relevant/ can be changed. It is a minority view based in absolutely no science or even common sense. Of course there will be push back from people who do not believe it. That's not transphobia.

If children were given proper mental health support rather than medical intervention and if it was acknowledged by trans rights groups that transwomen have a male body and therefore must be treated as male in a very small, specific number of areas where sex has ALWAYS been important ( medicine, sport, toilets, prisons,accurate records, safeguarding) then 'transphobia' as it is currently defined would vanish over night and pretty much all people would be up in arms if trans people experienced abuse for simply going about their everyday lives.

Apologies for labouring the point, but I'm sure we've all clocked that suggestions cannot answer my fundamental question about what trans even means. They either don't know, which makes their opinion absolutely meaningless because we have no way of even telling what common factor they think 'trans people' have in common, or they don't want to say, which makes them dishonest and disingenuous, not to mention unwilling to engage in good faith debate.

To even discuss any way of recording the trans experience, we are told that 'trans people have a gender that doesn't match their sex' (or words to that effect).

If the word you use to describe your sex (female?) is different from the word used to describe your gender (woman?) does that mean you are trans?
If the words don't need to match, which are the genders that match with each sex?

As a gender-critical person, I would say that 'female' matches 'woman', because the English language definition of woman is adult human female, and there is a female element to being a woman.

Yet I have no idea what genderists believe the matching pairs are. I had presumed they would agree with my interpretation, but they simply refuse to say either way, and constantly argue that woman does NOT require or imply being female.

suggestionsplease has lamented the lack of logic displayed by GC feminists. I am waiting for their logical mind to come and clear it up once and for all.

Alternatively, if by 'trans' you mean 'transsexual people' or 'people who wish to present as the opposite sex' then simply say so.

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Is it that it's our fault that the coroners don't investigate to suggestions satisfaction?

Yeah but it's very tenuous isn't it trying to say because a few people on here don't think trans exist and if their family who is trans dies they would deny it to the police the coroner... Therefore it's the GC side of the debate that is responsible for the lack of robust stats with regards to trans murders and suicide rates.

I mean come on. Seriously. what DOES that have to do with the price of fish?

Hashtag no debate was an absolute gift to the GC side.

These people have not bothered to hone their arguments.

They do not realise the harm that this ideology is doing to individuals, women and society.

I confess I'm baffled by this rather mad idea of a bereaved family whose first thought before the police and coroner arrive is... to presumably change the appearance of their lost loved one.

And the police and coroner not noticing. Or minding about this in their investigation of the crime scene of an unexplained death.

And no friend of the deceased reporting this or doing anything about it.

I think this is the stuff of bad tv dramas rather than reality. Read MN properly. Most of us who have friends and loved ones who are struggling with gender identity are extremely worried about them and do our best to support them. It is not necessary to believe in the ideology, to be obedient to it, and to ask no questions about it in order to do so.

They thought we'd be good little women, bow down to their manly no debate demand and let ourselves be walked all over. It never occurred to them that some women would go "Oi! What the fuck!"

@nilsmousehammer "And the police and coroner not noticing. Or minding about this in their investigation of the crime scene of an unexplained death."

Coroner: the deceased is a white male, fully intact penis, oh hang on there's breasts as well. So female then? Oh I'm not sure. Never mind l'ok think no more of that it probably had no bearing whatever on the fact the individual was found naked and stabbed to death"

Also I'm fairly sure if one of the people who lives in my street was found dead tomorrow in suspicious circumstances when the police are doing their door to door enquires we'd all ask them that if it was the person from No X that are they aware that person was a transwoman.

So apart from those deaths that occur in some remote area where the dead person had no internet connection, had been home schooled and never seen by a neighbour the police would become aware fairly quickly that they are dealing with a trans identifying individual regardless of whether their family wanted that known or not.

I think because of the trans activists and their allies live their lives completely online @Boiledbeetle , they’re a bit clueless as to how the real world works and how human interactions happen if not on a screen. I think it’s why they are convinced so many trans identified people ‘pass’ . People look a lot different in reality than they do on a screen with filters.

@Happylittlechicken now when you say it like that I start to feel sorry for them that their lives are so shallow. I truly am glad I existed before the internet and smart phones did.

And as for the filters, I'm fairly sure they could walk past some of the other people they follow and not recognise them as the pretty wee nymph they been drooling over for months.

To be fair I think suggestion was talking about tran teen suicides, not general TW murders.

CharleyParley outlined what happens after a teen commits suicide. It must be a horrific ordeal to go through as a parent and for families and friends. It must pray on their minds of what they could have done to save the teen, how they could have helped. I can't imagine many parents or families keeping the trans identity of their child or relative a secret when the teen has died in such tragic circumstances. I don't think that's how it works.

Gosh, even writing that out has made me emotional.

Yes, year on year teen suicide stats stay roughly the same at around 200 per year.
Dont get me wrong, 200 is 200 too many.
But the stats dont lie.

If there was a spike of trans teen suicides it would show up in the stats. It hasn't yet.

This whole thing gets rolled out, its just diversionary tactics. I tend to ignore.

This whole thing gets rolled out, its just diversionary tactics. I tend to ignore.

Yup.

My assertion is the existence of the myth on this thread that TW are less likely to be victims of violence than women. It is impossible to know because the gender identity of victims are not being recorded in the U.K

If this was to change - if the ONS for example wanted to accurately and consistently record the gender identity of people - how would they word the question in a clear and unambiguous way for people who might not know what a gender identity is - how does one identify which gender they are, out of the many? Should they even assume the existence of a gender identity? Isn't gender how society treats you according to your sex (or perceived sex) rather than an aspect of your personality/soul/true self? Does the 'identity' part mean you have chosen to accept or reject this?

From recent discussions on here I have gone from being a woman, not a woman, trans, not trans, agender, not agender, genderless, gender agnostic... the more I try to find out, the less I know. There doesn't seem to be a consensus that doesn't leave me with more questions.

Perhaps they just need to ask 'what is your sex' (with a clear note that this is a question about biological sex 'at birth' - to cover those situations where people mistakenly believe that anyone can change sex) and then 'are you trans'. I'd not be going down questions about gender identity specifically until the gender ideologists bother to define it and until it's clear to people that they are not being asked anything which relates to their physical body.

One of the current problems, which is feeding into a delusional belief that most people have a gender identity, is an obfuscation of what is actually being asked. I've complained about a lot of questionnaires which ask 'which gender do you identify with'. I think a lot of people reinterpret that into a sensible question of 'which sex are you' as the answers are 'male, female, prefer not to say'. If the question was really about gender, they should list the 100 plus genders we are told there are. Either way, people who support that ideological position interpret this as evidence that most people have a gender identity when really it's not.

Quite.

Is it relevant to the data being collected (and how?) that the respondent is a frost-gendered demi femme boi fluid with Goliath gender? How exactly is that going to impact on or shape services?

But if the options are m, f, don't want to answer, in effect what is being asked is: please can everyone not playing the gender card answer as to sex, those with the genders please pick the sex they would like to be or opt out if they wish. It relies on 99% of the population being sane so a few dont have to be. While pretending this is not what is happening.

It's simple:

Sex - biological sex, not GRC sex or self defined sex - actual sex.

Separate box/field - Trans Identifying Female/Trans Identifying Male/Not Applicable

That way accurate data will be compiled, which has been said is what trans and trans advocates want.

No need to obfuscate with genders. The simplest solution is always the best solution, so will that be accepted? I very much doubt it.

Can we talk about trans hate crimes? I did a bit of research in local Scottish news papers searching for 'Trans hate crime' and found.... none but many references to homophobic hate crimes. It would be really interesting if some could do some more systematic research. But I think there were 84 trans hate crimes last year in Scotland which has a population of 5.295 million. I'm sorry thats not a crime wave. www.copfs.gov.uk/about-copfs/news/hate-crime-in-scotland-2021-22/ One also wonders how many of those trans hate crimes involve... stickers.