Are they really this delusional? *trigger warning - thread mentions suicide*

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I was reading this thread

www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/yvt4ru/how_should_men_respond_to_transphobic_feminists/

and I just couldn’t believe these people are serious!
How can someon be this far gone?
Where do they base their beliefs on?

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk: "In the UK at least, a trans person is less likely to be murdered than the average person" "nine trans people killed between 2008 -2017" (or 7, according to the last link.)

www.openaccessgovernment.org/one-woman-killed-every-three-days/121352/ - one woman is killed every three days in the UK - average 2 per week.

transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/16/trans-homicides-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers/ - TW perpetrators of homicides in the same period = 12

Yes. If TW were in fact women (they’re really not), then wouldn’t men treat them with the same disrespect and misogyny to which women are subject? The fact that men will defend a males right to invade female spaces rather than defend the women opposing that shows exactly what they think of TW, and TW being women is not believed by any.

I’m still hoping @Onnabugeisha is going to explain to me why they’re offended by women talking about menstruation and dinosaurs

🩸 🦖

It's just straight up Cluster Bs doing their thing - "accusations are admissions" and all that, they're telling us who they are and we'd do well to listen.

Isn't it worrying to think there are hundreds of TQ people being killed and we somehow don't know about it?

I'm sure all the trans rights organisations are throwing resources at campaigning to make sure the police record sex and gender accurately and don't record victims as plain old women when they are actually transwomen or queer? And funding large scale, peer reviewed studies to prove TQ are at extreme risk and get to the bottom of why?

They must be doing this, right? 🤔

The same difficulty is present in the deaths of young trans people, especially teenagers, by suicide - parents will often not accept a trans identity (which should be unsurprising to people on this board), and reporting by local news agencies which notes trans identity has been taken down in the past as people are somewhat understandably concerned about 'copycat' incidents. Young friends of trans-identified people are also discouraged from trying to correct the reported identity of the young person, again, out of concern of copycat incidents.

In the case of every child who commits suicide in the UK a public inquest is held which looks into the child's struggles in great detail and at which any member of the public can speak to the case. Your assumption that countless suicides by children with gender dysphoria are somehow missed because everyone is lying about it is not only baseless, it is ignorant of the process and utterly divorced from reality.

(Public inquests are held into all suicides at any age in England and Wales, while in Scotland the Procurator Fiscal has to undertake a thorough examination of all the circumstances of a case before returning a verdict.)

There is a publicly available, searchable database of all recorded suicides btw. Anyone can look at these records to find out for themselves.

(Database of inquests, I should add.)

I'm sure someone will be along at any moment to link us to the relevant organisations and lobby groups. Funny that I've never heard anything about them - even on TG day of remembrance. I wonder why that is?

I don't want to derail but this: www.oldbaileyonline.org/ Is a fantastic resource. In actual fact crime, and attitudes towards crime and the demographics of the perpetrators and victims is one of the things archival records are great for because recording court cases/reports/deaths has been a key feature of local/central governments. That doesnt mean all crimes were recorded of course - rape in particular has always been under-reported, but you can still find it recorded in different ways (sometimes indirectly as a result of other cases.)

If we were to go down a self-identification route, you would lose a lot of that demmographic information - including incidentally information on crimes against trans people since if a transwoman was legally recorded as a woman on all their documents (inc birth certificates) historians in 300 years time would have no way of doing this was in fact a murder of a transwoman)

So long story short they were capable of gathering information on patterns of victims/perpetrators of crimes 300 years ago.

I'm really weary of all the misattributions that seem to occur on these boards. Where was my 'assumption about countless suicides' please? I would ask you to be accurate in your language when you refer to my posts.

So you seem to know a great deal about this process then. So after these public inquests / proc fisc examinations how are statistics then collated about the number of young trans-identified children that die of suicide? Or that they were questioning their identity and this formed part of the backdrop? Where is the quantitative data recorded on this please?

Do you think they are recorded as trans if relative statements say "We were aware that X was questioning their gender identity but do not agree that this was a fixed identity and do not wish them to be recorded as trans for any data collection purposes'?

There is no accurate, quantitative data on this subject, so people trying to make statements about the number of young trans people dying by suicide are logically unable to speak accurately on this subject.

Only your first source relates to the issue we are discussing. You think there is “evidence” and “pretty good data” that TW are at less risk of violence than women. For some reason, you have narrowed the focus to be only on homicide…

But your channel 4 factcheck, does confirm what I and suggestions have said, which is that there is no good data on how many transgender people are victims of murder in the U.K.

And your source confirms this:
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) confirmed to FactCheck that “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime

In other words, there is not yet an official, standardised method for recording the deaths of trans people across the UK. The ONS told FactCheck they are working across government to “develop clear harmonised standards” for collecting data on sex and gender.

They do go on to some “back of the envelope” guesses based on “unofficial data” gathered from what a charity claims happened on Brazil and the US. So really it’s remiss of you to not carry over their caveats which state essentially that it is not “pretty good data”. It’s also a bit misleading to state any of this is actually applicable to the U.K.

Obviously, I wasn’t offended by it but someone else was because they reported my post. So perhaps they should explain?

Ooh menstruating dinosaurs...

As my wonderful artwork went puff with the thread that will not be named I shall post it here.

Now better get off for my blood test appointment. Such fun.

Laters

Boiled x

The sources I shared back up the points I made.

The channel 4 "factcheck" is, I agreed, a biased source. But as you point out, they admit that trans charities are making stuff up when it comes to the figures.

If you want to broaden the scope, we can certainly look at other crimes committed by TW - transcrimeuk.com/

We can also talk about the percentage of TW in prison for sex crimes compared to male prisoners. I doubt you want to go there, but we can.

And please link to your sources of evidence to support the assertion that TW are at greater risk of violence than any other population in the UK.

So @beastlyslumber to sum up, your own solitary source which you cited confirm your following claims to be as follows:

The evidence we have clearly shows that TW are not being murdered, basically, at all in the UK. FALSE

We also have good evidence and reporting of rates of women killed. TRUE

Sheesh - we don't know what a 'woman' is any more, it's just got too complicated, but some males are absolutely certain they are one all the same and everyone should be concerned with the male people in this situation and policy should be made on this basis ... somehow.

Now we have no idea how many murders and suicides are happening to TQ+ identified people and there's definitely no way to tell this or know this, but everyone should be concerned in case this is probably happening somewhere out of sight (and missing all the papers, serious case reviews, gathered statistics, all the groups and charities) and policy should be made on the basis of this happening.... somehow.

This really is Schrodinger's Decade, isn't it? I can't wait for the 2030s. Possibly they'll be a bit more fact based and organised.

I cited three sources. There are more. The transcrime data I linked to goes into a lot of detail so you can see how they're analysing the data. They think it's only 7 tw killed in the period that the C4 factcheck says 9.

Not sure why you're discounting the other sources I linked, but even so. The fact remains that more TW killed than were killed over that 10 year period.

@beastlyslumber
And please link to your sources of evidence to support the assertion that TW are at greater risk of violence than any other population in the UK.

Thats not my or suggestions assertion. Our assertion is that it is a myth that TW are at less risk of violence than women in the U.K. because there is no consistent, standardised recording of the levels of violence, homicide or otherwise, against TW victims.

Therefore, your assertion is a myth because there is no evidence and no data to support it.

Love this, BoiledBeetle!❤

Therefore, your assertion is a myth because there is no evidence and no data to support it.

Yes, that's right - absolutely no data or evidence. As long as you don't look at any of the data or evidence.

Good grief. Your other sources have nothing to do with TW victims of violent crimes. That’s why I’m discounting them, because they are irrelevant to the argument at hand. Channel 4 fact check discounted itself, and I have quoted exactly how they did that. I’m not sure why you are hanging your hat on a source which stated it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” as a prelude to saying a few notional guesses as to how many there might be.

From the U.K. ONS in the source you linked:
it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics

Its not possible because there is no data and no evidence. If there were any, ONS would know.

Therefore, your assertion is a myth because there is no evidence and no data to support it.

but @Onnabugeisha by the same logic, your assertion is also a myth, as there’s no evidence or data to support it so….. stalemate? It’s lietally schroedingers statistics. Why are stonewall et al not using their millions to fund research into this topic?