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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Response from health care service providers "assigned at birth"

228 replies

FernlovingNodosaur · 03/11/2022 07:53

Can you please give your thoughts on this matter and if your smart wording/thinking could add anything to my response letter.

I complained via email because I very recently received an unsolicited advert from my major health care provider see below for company. About a serious sex based disease yet the advert used assigned at birth manta.

Their response email below:

Dear Ms

I'm emailing you in response to your complain on Wednesday 2nd November regarding your unhappiness that we make reference to the term "assigned at birth" rather than classifying a specific gender.
I apologise if it has caused you any offence - it is not the service that Babylon aim to deliver.
Our marketing team are using the term "assigned at birth" to cause minimal offence to our many patients and we will be continuing to use this term. Unfortunately, we can't adapt marketing emails individually to each person's gender and have to use a neutral term.
If you have any further queries, please let me know.
Cheers,
Clinical Operations Team Leader.
**

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 22:52

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:36

And you don’t care about those who find it offensive.

And you don't care about those who find DSD offensive. You also don't seem to care much about intersex people given pretty much half of what you've posted is in direct contradiction to demands from intersex organisations. Wanting to force intersex girls with vaginas to use male spaces. Horrifying.

Please provide the evidence that people find Differences or Variations of sex differences offensive. I will then ask our posters when they next appear, or via Twitter and check this.

Otherwise, your post seems to be pretty petty.

Wanting to force intersex girls with vaginas to use male spaces. Horrifying.

Livvy If you are talking about Caster Semenya again, they are male. They know they are male. They have known for over a decade.

To continue this is direction of posting is getting repulsive.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 03/11/2022 22:53

“Intersex” is still very popular, although by no means exclusively used, in the USA, which is linguistically backwards in other ways too.

I’ve noticed the term “child porn” for example is still very much in use over there, by statutory agencies as much as uninformed individuals, while here you see it less and less. People over here, certainly those whose work is in any way connected with fighting CSA/CSE, tend to use more accurate terms like “images of child abuse”, as do others who are aware and care about the issue.

Likewise “intersex” vs “people with DSDs”. As Helleofabore says, there are MNers who themselves have DSDs and have expressed their feelings on the matter, and also there are those with DSDs that many of us follow on Twitter: we listen to the people personally affected by the issue who have spoken directly to us.

And just think about it. “Intersex” is an outdated, inaccurate term. No one is actually between the sexes. The human body develops along one of two pathways, in terms of reproductive function: whatever variations or disorders may manifest in that development, each human body - each person - still falls into one of the two categories, develops along the pathway of producing large gametes or small ones. Even if that body, that person, ultimately produces neither.

But anyway. There is no reason at all to use any of this language about people who don’t have DSDs, which is the vast majority of the population - no reason except the furtherance of a quasi-religious, highly controversial and noticeably authoritarian ideology which has been imposed by stealth on our supposedly reason-based, democratic societies.

Which is the point that needs to be made to the very confused person who sent that email to the OP.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:53

By the way, we know there is no test for ‘gender identity’ despite you erroneous claims, because when it was vital to their service, the Tavistock and GIDS could not produce any evidence of one.

You don't need to test for gender identity you can just ask someone. Same as there's no test for sexuality but it's a pretty safe bet to go with what people tell you about themselves.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 22:53

And of course I am taking about politicizing people’s bodies. Not that Semenya is in any way repulsive.

TheKeatingFive · 03/11/2022 22:53

I'm always baffled why those with DSD are even brought into the debate (other than for the purposes of obfuscation, clearly).

They're not even slightly over represented in the trans identified (or that's my understanding).

The vast, vast majority of Transpeople are totally unambiguous in terms of the sex they were born as.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 22:55

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:53

By the way, we know there is no test for ‘gender identity’ despite you erroneous claims, because when it was vital to their service, the Tavistock and GIDS could not produce any evidence of one.

You don't need to test for gender identity you can just ask someone. Same as there's no test for sexuality but it's a pretty safe bet to go with what people tell you about themselves.

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.

You are using some tired old trope tonight.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:55

I'm always baffled why those with DSD are even brought into the debate (other than for the purposes of obfuscation, clearly).

Ask the op, they're the ones that started a thread complaining about a health provider using Intersex inclusive language.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:58

If so many individuals find the term DSD objectionable, surely you can give us an example of them expressing that?

I'm certainly not giving you an example of an individual saying it. I've seen what happens to people on social media when their handles get posted on this forum.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 22:59

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:47

I ask, because I've seen many posters on MN and Twitter objecting to Intersex and preferring DSD and not one expressing the opposite. Which makes sense as it's highly inaccurate for the vast majority.

That's probably because they represent the small number of gender critical DSD people who prefer the term because it fits better with gender critical ideology. However Intersex is still very widely used, including by all branches of Organisation Intersex International, probably the world's largest Intersex advocacy umbrella group. oiiuk.org

Nope. I have also seen academics releasing studies use DSD or VSD.

Either way. STOP politicising their bodies for your own purposes.

TheKeatingFive · 03/11/2022 23:02

Ask the op, they're the ones that started a thread complaining about a health provider using Intersex inclusive language

Pretty sure you're the one who ran with it as having strong relevance to the debate. Yet like I say, DSDs arent even slightly over represented among TP.

I'm certainly not giving you an example of an individual saying it.

You didn't need to include any identifying info, but ...

Convenient 😂

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:03

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 22:55

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.

You are using some tired old trope tonight.

That's all gay and lesbian sexuality is about is it, sexual arousal, not love and attraction? You know there are lots of straight people who are aroused by same sex activity but don't consider themselves gay and would never have a same sex relationship don't you? It's one of the reasons sexual health charities often use the term men who have sex with men and not gay.

And how many LGB people have taken these tests? The only one who seems to still be using them is gender critical icon Ray Blanchard and he's busy showing paedophiles pictures of naked children and measuring their erections these days.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 03/11/2022 23:06

That's all gay and lesbian sexuality is about is it

thats what you just said

no-one else said that

helle just said sexuality….she didn’t specify whose

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 23:08

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 22:55

I'm always baffled why those with DSD are even brought into the debate (other than for the purposes of obfuscation, clearly).

Ask the op, they're the ones that started a thread complaining about a health provider using Intersex inclusive language.

A dishonest post.

I think anyone following the progression on the use of that term understands it is used for trans people.

And I have given a very important reason why it is incorrect to use it for medical communications. I believe you didn’t answer that.

But I will repeat it for readers joining in now.

Additive language is a useful solution, where the word male or female are also used.

Using ‘assigned at birth’ means that any person who has English language difficulties may not understand an important medical message.

Even worse, a person who incorrectly had a sex ‘assigned at birth’ will also be getting unclear or incorrect medical information.

This could mean life changing or shortening health risks.

0.018% of people in the world have a difference of sex development. Of these, nearly every one of them will have had testing to know their sex using modern techniques.

There is no need to use this ambiguous term. It is dangerous to do so.

Discovereads · 03/11/2022 23:10

@Helleofabore

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.
The “test” involves watching porn and then checking off on from 1 to 10 how aroused you feel. But it only works if porn videos turn you on. So obviously the “test” fails for many men and most women. Also, they found that for some people any porn arouses them- it doesn’t have to involve partners coinciding with their sexuality- so you get false positives for bisexuality. 😑

I say “test” because it was never an official test btw, it was a psychology experiment.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 23:13

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:03

That's all gay and lesbian sexuality is about is it, sexual arousal, not love and attraction? You know there are lots of straight people who are aroused by same sex activity but don't consider themselves gay and would never have a same sex relationship don't you? It's one of the reasons sexual health charities often use the term men who have sex with men and not gay.

And how many LGB people have taken these tests? The only one who seems to still be using them is gender critical icon Ray Blanchard and he's busy showing paedophiles pictures of naked children and measuring their erections these days.

You are the one trying to use sexuality and gender identity as comparators here livvy.

Not me.

You do not have one shred of evidence for a predicted gender test or criteria, yet have doubled down on insisting that is how doctors work out the sex of a child with a difference of sex development.

Yet you used this as a distraction from your lack of evidence.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 23:15

Discovereads · 03/11/2022 23:10

@Helleofabore

Sexuality can be tested for. It is an arousal test.
The “test” involves watching porn and then checking off on from 1 to 10 how aroused you feel. But it only works if porn videos turn you on. So obviously the “test” fails for many men and most women. Also, they found that for some people any porn arouses them- it doesn’t have to involve partners coinciding with their sexuality- so you get false positives for bisexuality. 😑

I say “test” because it was never an official test btw, it was a psychology experiment.

Sure discovereads

You have obviously read the posts leading up to that.

Do you believe there is a predictive ‘gender’ test? That is why livvy introduced this line of discussion, after all.

NotBadConsidering · 03/11/2022 23:15

Caster Semenya does not have a vagina. HTH.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:16

0.018% of people in the world have a difference of sex development. Of these, nearly every one of them will have had testing to know their sex using modern techniques.

Some intersex conditions don't get diagnosed until puberty and even with babies they don't use medical tests exclusively to determine legal sex.

Talking of babies, here's a 'man' according to some who had a successful pregnancy using a donated egg: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5885995/

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 03/11/2022 23:17

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care

wee bit of a daft assumption there

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 23:17

Oh. Hang on. Is livvy thinking that maybe there is a test that combines sexual arousal and gender identity validation.

Well. Wouldn’t that be something ?

Helleofabore · 03/11/2022 23:19

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:16

0.018% of people in the world have a difference of sex development. Of these, nearly every one of them will have had testing to know their sex using modern techniques.

Some intersex conditions don't get diagnosed until puberty and even with babies they don't use medical tests exclusively to determine legal sex.

Talking of babies, here's a 'man' according to some who had a successful pregnancy using a donated egg: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5885995/

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care.

And further usage of a person’s medical condition as a gotcha.

You really are on a roll livvy.

TheKeatingFive · 03/11/2022 23:20

Talking of babies, here's a 'man' according to some who had a successful pregnancy using a donated egg

While that's obviously a highly unusual outcome of a DSD, I'm not sure what you think it proves.

This individual did not have the capability to produce eggs. Which is the key defining characteristic of the female species. Large gametes or small gametes. No one produces both. No one produces something else.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:21

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 03/11/2022 23:17

I assume people here would force her to have this baby on a male ward rather than in maternity care

wee bit of a daft assumption there

Why, some posters were adament that intersex women with vaginas, or men as they see them, should use male spaces only in case they make a 'real' woman feel a bit uncomfortable.

livvyposts · 03/11/2022 23:22

Anyway it's been interesting but I'm off to bed. Men can have vaginas and a successful pregancy according to musnetters, who'd have thought it lol.

TheKeatingFive · 03/11/2022 23:24

Men can have vaginas and a successful pregancy

But they can't produce eggs. That's the key defining feature of a female. Maybe acknowledge that next time you wheel out that example.

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