Response from health care service providers "assigned at birth"

[FernlovingNodosaur]

Can you please give your thoughts on this matter and if your smart wording/thinking could add anything to my response letter.

I complained via email because I very recently received an unsolicited advert from my major health care provider see below for company. About a serious sex based disease yet the advert used assigned at birth manta.

Their response email below:

Dear Ms

I'm emailing you in response to your complain on Wednesday 2nd November regarding your unhappiness that we make reference to the term "assigned at birth" rather than classifying a specific gender.
I apologise if it has caused you any offence - it is not the service that Babylon aim to deliver.
Our marketing team are using the term "assigned at birth" to cause minimal offence to our many patients and we will be continuing to use this term. Unfortunately, we can't adapt marketing emails individually to each person's gender and have to use a neutral term.
If you have any further queries, please let me know.
Cheers,
Clinical Operations Team Leader.
**

livvy people with DSDs have REPEATEDLY asked not to be referred to as “intersex”. They are all either female or male, with female or male specific DSDs. What you are doing in using that term, and in co-opting their distressing medical conditions to score points for your gender identity ideology, is very disrespectful and very hurtful.

Please stop.

livvy people with DSDs have REPEATEDLY asked not to be referred to as “intersex”.

Then why does almost every major intersex led advocacy group use the term?

Endocrinologists eh, what do they know about gender

Why would they know about gender?

They know about SEX! They know about hormones and they know how to use hormones to create cosmetic modifications in a body!

Do you understand what they can’t do? Change a person’s sex that is genetically coded into their cells. (I believe Dr Robert Winston said that … oh but he is just an leading fertility doctor and embryo expert… what would he know compared to, say, livvy ?).

If a person stops taking artificial hormones and their hormonal producing body parts are undamaged, you know those body parts will continue working, don’t you?

Or do you think an endocrinologist has the ability to reduce the body to atoms and reform the cells to be the opposite sex?

You do realise, if you are a male when you are born, your cells will still be coded to perform male specific roles when you die?

Endocrinologists are not magicians.

And maybe you should look up one who is an expert in testosterone and what he says about sports and the male ability to ‘change sex’. Dr David Handelsman.

Or Dr William Malone. Another Endocrinologist.

That is just off the top of my head without research at all.

I bet they haven't read any posts on mumsnet.

No. But you know what? We read their work!!!! I know, right?

Mind blowing !!!

Imagine being so ignorant that you would expect that world experts all agree with each other about ‘gender identity’.

Because the intersex organisations only represent a % of those with Differences of sex development. And some countries use the term because of translation.

It is well known and well written about.

I guess if you are only interested in their stories for using them for political reasons, you might miss that. As we keep saying, there are Mumsnetters that have Differences of Sex Development and we listen and ask questions directly. Same with Twitter.

Because we are not the people using them to prop up a weak theory of sex is a spectrum needed to leverage gender identity.

Then why does almost every major intersex led advocacy group use the term?

On the back of a quick google

This one doesn't

dsdfamilies.org/charity

This uses it, while explaining that it's an historical term that makes those people uncomfortable

www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/genitourinary-tract/Pages/Explaining-Disorders-of-Sex-Development-Intersexuality.aspx

Ooohhhhhh. A ‘gotcha’ we have never seen, right?

AND you are very offensively persisting in politicising other people’s bodies for your own agenda.

It is pretty clear that you have no compunction doing this. It is now clear you know little but are evangelistically leveraging people’s bodies, not for the topic of this thread, but for arguing trans people can change sex. Or at least, because of the presence of people with Differences in sex development, males should have access to female single sex spaces.

I am sure that you have been told this. But if females were able to trust that not one male would ever come into any female single sex spaces, any female that even deliberately seeks to develop male cues would not be an issue.

Because that is not realistic, because some, thankfully few, males feel supreme entitlement to enter female single sex spaces, yes, some females will be questioned.

Answer the question I asked.

Are you saying that Semenya , knowing this could cause distress to females, would continue to use female single sex spaces?

yes or no

Interesting.

So, you listen to a group insisting that gender is real when the majority of the population would disagree.

You insist that gender be embraced and respected. But people with DSDs, apparently you seem to treat their requests with the same derision and unbridled disdain as you treat women who disagree with you.

Even whilst your leverage their medical issues to suit your political agenda.

You do seem to lack self awareness.

DSD Families is not an intersex led group, it is a group for families.

Good info from your AAP link though

"Determining the gender of a child with a significant DSD or ambiguous genitalia is especially challenging when the child is too young to say whether they feel like a boy or a girl. In this case, the parents and the medical team will work together and gather as much information as possible about what the future may hold for the child.

"Regardless of the male or female gender assigned at birth, sometimes the team and the family are incorrect. In this case, once the child is old enough to state his or her own identity, he or she may choose to live that gender instead."

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

You insist that gender be embraced and respected. But people with DSDs, apparently you seem to treat their requests with the same derision and unbridled disdain as you treat women who disagree with you.

Not derision I'm aware some people don't like the term but many do use it and don't like the term DSD. The people I know personally who are intersex use that term to describe themselves. Almost all advocacy groups use it.

And you don’t care about those who find it offensive.

yeah. We got it livvy.

We understand.

It is now clear you know little but are evangelistically leveraging people’s bodies, not for the topic of this thread, but for arguing trans people can change sex. Or at least, because of the presence of people with Differences in sex development, males should have access to female single sex spaces.

I'm really not. I haven't mentioned trans people once on this thread. I am horrified by some poster's attitude to intersex people and the raw cruelty that seems to drive it which is why I posted on this thread.

DSD Families is not an intersex led group, it is a group for families.

What then, is an Intersex led group and why would we prioritise their view when we're told by multiple sources that it's an out of date and offensive term?

Determining the gender of a child with a significant DSD or ambiguous genitalia is especially challenging when the child is too young to say whether they feel like a boy or a girl. In this case, the parents and the medical team will work together and gather as much information as possible about what the future may hold for the child.

It can be challenging yes, not impossible.

Genuine ambiguity after scientific testing would only be true of a disorder like 46,XX ovotesticular DSD, which is incredibly rare among DSDs.

many do use it and don't like the term DSD

Source for this assertion please? That people don't like the term DSD?

Oh not this again. There is nothing wrong with any medical form/letter/survey or what have you saying “assigned at birth”. It’s clear from the “at birth” context that they want your sex, not your gender.

And “assigned” means essentially the same thing as “observed” or “identified”- that the sex is being noted for the birth certificate.

If this is the hill you want to die on, it’s a mole hill. It’s rather like writing to an energy company and complaining their letter asked you to “pay” your bill instead of “settle” your bill.

My advice is it’s not worth your time or mental energy. You have better things to do. The NHS is overworked and understaffed enough to not have to deal with frivolous complaints about questions not being worded to your personal preference when you understood perfectly the exact information they were asking for, as will everyone else reading it.

Regardless of the male or female gender assigned at birth, sometimes the team and the family are incorrect. In this case, once the child is old enough to state his or her own identity, he or she may choose to live that gender instead."

What has this got to do with SEX livvy?

We know that the same % of people with Differences of Sex Development may have trans identities as the rest of the population.

Or would you like to prove otherwise?

And you don’t care about those who find it offensive.

And you don't care about those who find DSD offensive. You also don't seem to care much about intersex people given pretty much half of what you've posted is in direct contradiction to demands from intersex organisations. Wanting to force intersex girls with vaginas to use male spaces. Horrifying.

And you don't care about those who find DSD offensive.

Again, who are they please?

interactadvocates.org/interact-statement-on-intersex-terminology/

interactadvocates.org/interact-statement-on-intersex-terminology/

Frankly, an advocacy group could be motivated by anything. And these days frequently is.

Any affected individuals expressing this view?

I ask, because I've seen many posters on MN and Twitter objecting to Intersex and preferring DSD and not one expressing the opposite. Which makes sense as it's highly inaccurate for the vast majority.

I ask, because I've seen many posters on MN and Twitter objecting to Intersex and preferring DSD and not one expressing the opposite. Which makes sense as it's highly inaccurate for the vast majority.

That's probably because they represent the small number of gender critical DSD people who prefer the term because it fits better with gender critical ideology. However Intersex is still very widely used, including by all branches of Organisation Intersex International, probably the world's largest Intersex advocacy umbrella group. oiiuk.org

You have talked about gender identity. A lot. And posted about sex is a spectrum.

You are being disingenuous.

You are also discussing male people accessing female single sex spaces. You just have tried to use a sleight of hand and used people with Differences of sex development to do it.

You have also then said ;

Endocrinologists eh, what do they know about gender

Nothing, livvy. That is what I expect the answer is when the facts are laid out. They deal with sex and they deal with hormones. They can change hormones artificially in the body. But they don’t know about ‘gender identity’ in that that is not something they can ‘test’ for (despite your assertion utilising an author’s alternative use of the word for sex), gender dysphoria may be something a psychologist/ psychiatrist can assess for. The endocrinologist supplies hormones and suppression drugs.

By the way, we know there is no test for ‘gender identity’ despite you erroneous claims, because when it was vital to their service, the Tavistock and GIDS could not produce any evidence of one.

They searched world wide and nothing was found that was credible to use.

Surely you knew that?

Wanting to force intersex girls with vaginas to use male spaces. Horrifying.

I've read the whole thread and no one has suggested this. Male people with DSDs are not "girls".

That's probably because they represent the small number of gender critical DSD people who prefer the term because it fits better with gender critical ideology.

No. Most of the people I've seen aren't particularly engaged in the debate at all. They just don't want their conditions brought into it erroneously.

If so many individuals find the term DSD objectionable, surely you can give us an example of them expressing that?

In your opinion. In the opinion of most intersex people themselves, the experts that treat them and the law in most cases they are. And I suspect most people with a shred of empathy would agree.