Why? What is the endgame for TRAs

[Brefugee]

I keep wondering why this is all happening now. What was the actual trigger point of people like Nicola Sturgeon becoming so adamant that the rights of Trans people have to be promoted and fought for at this time?

Why is it desireable that GRCs be obtainable so quickly? Does it all go back to Foucault and his post-modernist cronies? What is it that Sturgeon and Trudeau and other governments who are falling over themselves to push a trans-agenda up to? what is in it for them?

To be clear: I'm not rabidly anti-trans and up to now it hasn't really impinged on my life in any other way (I did know two transwomen way back but have lost touch. I do know a couple of young transmen and they seem fine but i don't know them well). I am painfully aware, of course, that other people's lives are being hugely impacted by this (seemingly?) sudden surge in transwomen and am very keen, as a 2nd wave feminist, that women are protected and allowed to live their lives and achieve their full potential in any way they can/want to. (so I'm not TWAW - i'm in favour of either fully proper unisex spaces or 3rd spaces)

I just don't get why. Why now? Why Canada? Why Scotland? Why anywhere?

Manhood or masculinity is often culturally defined by the ability and capacity to commit violence. That needs to change before any real progress can be made.

and why does saying if men think or feel a certain way then they're really women help with that?

wouldn't it help more to say that gentle or effeminate men are still men?

It’ll be the same shit, different day, only the man with his foot on your neck will be wearing stilettos instead of brogues.

Im having this printed on a T-shirt 👏

I’d buy that tee shirt

I look forward to hearing the answer.

Because livvy has been all over the KJK Portland thread dismissing the violence towards the women speaking that was perpetrated by extreme trans activists.

If a person cannot actually recognise violence against women, I cannot understand why they think they can credibly discuss male violence.

'The end game is get rid of the legal age of sex and dismantle child safe guarding. That’s it.'

Yes, PIE 2.0

And livvy - the argument you are making about smashing the patriarchy is correct - but you can't seem to accept that transwomen are men, and so they are the least likely tool to enable this; they can only perpetuate it. As a PP said, stiletto or brogue, the foot will still be on our necks.

It’s the trans activists who are pro porn and pro funnelling very young women into prostitution via mind numbing mantras and Only Fans as a tool of desensitivity not us middle aged feminists!

I’m really excited to hear your ideas re: stopping men from raping and beating women via the cultural change of a positive makeover for the concept of masculinity…

But I suspect the castration at birth strategy would be a lot more effective?

Bit too radical for me - but then I’m against the castration of ALL children, male, female, chemical and surgical.

A makeover for masculinity won’t end rape, of course, as males who claim femininity also rape… in fact, prison statistics suggest that sex offending is more common in men-who-smash-the-gender-binary than in men-who-don’t.

Which is why males-with-a-gender-identity can never be safely housed with female prisoners

But it's ok now because it's lesbians with penises who are pursuing women and breaking down their boundaries? (Obviously not exclusively, but it's not exactly improving anything)

I'm not entirely sure how allowing males to use women as non-consenting props in their sexual fantasy of Being A Woman is going to lead to a society where rape is less likely either.

I don’t feel any need to smash the gender binary, because I don’t believe gender is a binary

Gender is a big stinking heap of mostly arbitrary, largely boring, rules based on sex stereotypes.

Why would you anyone just ‘smash’ a binary?
Seems a bit half arsed when you could instead burn the whole stinking heap right down to the ground?

(reminds me of Magdalen Burns’ critique of Ash Hardell)

Alternatively you could just ignore the boring sex stereotypes and get on with more interesting.stuff, y’know, like all the sensibly shod middleaged terves have been doing since the 1960s…

So we all stop noticing when men rape people, and then men will stop raping people? The real problem is the women who name male violence, not the men who commit it.

How can you not see that you’re acting as an enforcer for the patriarchy while you pretend you’re smashing it? This is tragically stupid.

and why does saying if men think or feel a certain way then they're really women help with that?

Because within the context of the current heavily gendered system some people find their role excruciating and seek to live in the other social role. In addition some people have crushing physical dysphoria which is alleviated by changing the bodies and/or appearance. But there is also a whole world of non binary people and other gender identities emerging and it is the patriarchy's worst nightmare which is why they are fighting it so hard.

The red states which attempted to introduce bathroom bills didn't do it because they cared about women's safety. They did it as a way of socially engineering gender conformity - women being harassed in single sex spaces for not appearing feminine enough was a feature not a bug. The idea that someone born biologically female may change their body to the extent they could not perform their expected roles as wives and mothers is enraging to the patriarchy - the ultimate blasphemy whether it alleviates suffering or not. Lesbians are bad enough but at least there is some hope they can one day be saved in the mind of the patriarch, not so trans men. That's why the language of mutilated bodies is used far more often (especially by men) to refer to trans men as opposed to trans women. Don't trans men realise they don't own their bodies and can't be trusted to make decisions about what's right for them? You never hear the language of mutilated bodies when women have surgery to make themselves fit more easily within patriarchal ideas of attractiveness however.

Meanwhile men can go off to war, play dangerous sports, fight, and fuck up their bodies in all kinds of ways and this is perfectly acceptable to the patriarch despite it causing far more long term injuries, health problems and even deaths than gender reassigment procedures ever will. Because men own their bodies and are masters of their own destinies under patriarchy (within the cultural and violent norms of masculinity), those born female however are not. Trans people blow a big hole in that, the ultimate fuck you, and that is why all patriarchal institutions are threatened by trans existence.

Since when were buzz word generators allowed accounts on MN?

Anyway, to get away from the derail and back to the actual question.

There do certainly seem to be certain people who are very interested in accruing whatever power and room to operate for their own nefarious ends they can.

But I am not sure they are the ones in control. In many ways they seem to me to be taking advantage of opportunities which have presented themselves due to more foundational problems.

It's all part of this attack against things like meaningful education, democratic institutions, socially resilient forms, etc. This has created a great chance for opportunists to insert themselves, and they in turn further contribute to the loss of social and political and cultural resilience. The people who want that may well further support gender ideology to that end, but I am not sure breaking down our understanding of sex is their primary goal.

That's funny. I feel sorry for you writing all that guff out.

This bit!

But there is also a whole world of non binary people and other gender identities emerging and it is the patriarchy's worst nightmare which is why they are fighting it so hard.

Honestly, "they" aren't "fighting it so hard". It's mostly laughter.

Get over yourself!

It’s amazing how oblivious you genderists are to the glaring contradictions in your creed.

Celebrate bodily autonomy by having your breasts or genitals removed! Defy patriarchy by embracing outdated sex stereotypes! And for Nicola Sturgeon and her supporters: show how you are feminist by prioritising male wishes over female needs!

Quite. Let’s tell sexual predators that they can now look at vulnerable and non-consenting women and girls, but they mustn’t touch. I’m sure they’ll obey.

There are so many inconsistencies in your arguments you must wonder if you are coming or going!

I’ll leave some for my esteemed mumsnet chums to point out but here’s a couple of thoughts to be going on with

But there is also a whole world of non binary people and other gender identities emerging and it is the patriarchy's worst nightmare which is why they are fighting it so hard

’emerging gender identities’ a) doesn’t mean anything: Gender identity as Genderism describes it, is just a feeling inside a person’s head, it’s entirely subjective and no one else knows it’s there.

Because it’s invisible (an inner subjective feeling) it doesn’t actually do anything or threaten any existing power structures. A female person’s inner thoughts have rarely troubled a system of power. Calling that person a ‘non binary AFAB’ instead of a woman changes nothing.

Meanwhile men can go off to war, play dangerous sports, fight, and fuck up their bodies in all kinds of ways and this is perfectly acceptable to the patriarch despite it causing far more long term injuries, health problems and even deaths than gender reassigment procedures ever will

This is about 40 years out of date. Women can fight on the front line of wars and can participate in any extreme sports they fancy, from rock climbing to snowboarding. It’s true we are less likely to fight, but men fighting each other is not ‘perfectly acceptable to the patriarch’ - assault, ABH, GBH, attempted murder are all crimes and men are more likely to be incarcerated than women are.

Boys are more likely to be born with disabilities but women are more likely to become disabled and women live longer and are more likely to access health care. Men don’t use medical forms of contraception or require obstetric or gynaecological care.

of course healthcare for non trans people will, as a total, cost more than healthcare for non trans people, but that’s because there are over 60 million people in the UK and less than 500,000 identify as trans. The percentage of gender reassignment procedures that need revision is enormous, and a gonadectomy renders a person a medical patient for life.
Trans people have gender reassignment procedures in addition to all the everyday stuff that men and women have. Trans people of both sexes can go to war and do extreme sports and fight and ‘fuck up their bodies in all sorts of ways’. It’s as if you are forgetting that trans people are people not just walking reassignment operations. Transmen even have babies, just like other women do.

Because men own their bodies and are masters of their own destinies under patriarchy (within the cultural and violent norms of masculinity), those born female however are not.

This is just utter pap. Under ‘patriarchy’ men have been conscripted and died in trenches on European beaches in their millions, they were not the ‘masters of their own destiny’. Men blow themselves up on the command of patriarchal religions, and are forced to work dirty jobs for the sake of society, they risk industrial death and industrial disease. If you think men own their bodies and are masters of their destiny then you must be pretty bloody posh. Try talking to a miner sometime. Ask him how much agency he had down the pit. Ask him about emphysema. About lung cancer.
it’s nonsense to suggest that women have no agency under current systems - we aren’t ‘masters’ of own destiny, because that’s just crap sex stereotype language but with the necessary mitigations for our smaller stature and reproductive burden afforded to us in liberal society women can do just as much stupid shit with their bodies as men can. No one owns us any more and contraception allows us to time our pregnancies to suit or to stay childfree if we wish. Women are educated, intelligent and with the right sets of tools we can do -most of the things that men can do We have legal protections in the workplace, we own property, we can divorce spouses without fault, we had to fight for the vote but now we represent ourselves in Parliament. The mitigations we need to live full lives is single sex spaces, services & sporting categories and safety equipment, technology & medicine that acknowledges our differences as the female sex of a sexually dimorphic mammal species.

Trans people blow a big hole in that, the ultimate fuck you, and that is why all patriarchal institutions are threatened by trans existence

Trans people don’t blow a hole in any of it!

Female trans people still have babies (Freddy McConnell) male trans people still join armies (Hannah Graf)
A male person who works at an investment bank in a pink frock on girl mode day is exactly the same person he is in a grey suit on a boy mode day (Pips/Pippa Bunce).

Gender ideology is lying to you.
It’s just the same old cock in a brand new frock, it promises you liberation from the patriarchy but true female liberation would allow for female separatism and free political association of women as a class - can’t do that within the Patricia-archy, because males won’t allow it.

Under Zir’s Eye.

My view of it, is along with the dismantling of child safeguarding and abolishing of the legal age of sex as mentioned by a PP, is to send women back into the home and vanish us from society...... just listen to their chants "terfs go home", how many of us are shopping online from home because there aren't single sex changing rooms? how long will it be before we stop going to pubs/restaurants because unisex toilets make us feel unsafe/uncomfortable and are disgusting & filthy with piss on seats? I know i wouldn't frequent venue again where the toilet are in a bad state. In work places we're fearful of airing our opinion, in sport we can't compete. I think the long term end game to make access to every place difficult and uncomfortable and unsafe so that we just retreat back into our homes

Gender critical feminism is essentially liberalism, in that it accepts male violence and the oppression women face as inevitable and so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces within that oppression.

Nope. It accepts that males are often the perpetrators (not exclusively, and it is not forgotten that those on the receiving end of male violence are more likely to be other men). As i understood Gender Critical Feminism they are pretty much aligned with other branches of feminism in the belief that gender is a social construct that perpetrates the social idea of how men and women present and behave. And they reject it. A man in a dress is a man in a dress. Not a woman.

Much like liberals accept capitalist exploitation as inevitable and believe the best that can be hoped for is a few concessions within that to minimise the suffering it causes.

Not sure about liberals there (I'm assuming the US version of the word?). But if we look at, say, socialism they are on board with capitalism to a certain degree but the basic premises are:
a) the workers own the means of production (and thus control it rather than being controlled by it)
b) equality of opportunity and that is not based on your class (sex class or social class) rather than the owners of the means of production sucking up ever more of the resources

The idea of looking at women as a sex class isn't incorrect, Marxism looks at most things through a class lens where "class" is just the signifier of the dividers in society. It is possible to belong to more than one class at once - hence intersectional feminism.

True radicals, of both the second and third wave, seek to overthrow the entire system of patriarchal domination so that safe spaces are no longer necessary.

That may be an end game. It is not the only game in town though and we are a long way from that (if we ever get there). Feminism as its very first premise seeks to demolish the idea that a woman can't do something because she's a woman (eg be Prime Minister; vote,;work after they get married; can choose when and how many children they have, or none etc etc) Further to this, and it is the obvious obverse of the coin but so many people stop at "women should be equal" and don't ponder this: if women are equal where does that leave men? Well, duh (and i can't believe we have to keep saying this) they are also equal. They can be nurses, SAHP, take parental leave, be a carer, be a teacher, be a firefighter, be a midwife - whatever takes their fancy. But that all positions in society are open to those who can and want to do them.

Again to borrow from socialism (possibly Marxism?) "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need"

(of course in a lot of countries that have tried Marxism the fact that they want to indoctrinate the next generation literally removed women from the SAHP role in favour of wraparound care. Equality to toil down at the factory like a Stakhanovite for the greater good while your children learn about the dear/great leader. Which is really a case of be careful what you wish for and make sure decision makers are spread around more classes than the male revolutionary leaders.)

It’s a perfect storm of other things already mentioned but also it’s a men’s sexual access campaign. About pushing men’s rights to access to women and children sexually. It’s extremely sinister how many people will hop on board with campaigning for that. Porn has done a massive dehumanising on its objects in our society. It’s a safeguarding crisis.

Trans people blow a big hole in that, the ultimate fuck you, and that is why all patriarchal institutions are threatened by trans existence

Yes* *Trans surgeries undermine the patriarchy, that is why Iran and Thailand, with some of the biggest trans markets, are the least sexist countries on earth. Oh wait they obviously are not. What nonsense.

Lets look at another sexist country the USA - there the rise of trans agenda has massively intensified since 2015. During that time the patriarchy in the US has collapsed clearly and is in full retreat. Oh wait it hasn't. The Age of Trump is not a binary smashing moment. Gender wars are awesome for traditionalists because they love arguing about who is a man or a woman. They have really simple answers to that. They don't want to talk about domestic violence, or social services. They are gaining more support than ever. Because neogender enby stuff is dumb as rocks. Someone truly subverting gender says I am the same gender as you despite being outrageous. Agreeing with trads that you are a different type of human to them, is using their own thinking and supporting them.

The biggest exponent of smashing the binary right now is Joe Biden. Yes Joe is going to bring in happy enby unicorn land. Where old white straight men will fade away. Of course he will.

If not him it will be Kamala Harris, or Pete Buttigieg, the straightest gay in the world. Along with Amazon, Google etc. Welcome to happy enby unicorn land where your corporate leaders still 70-80% male have crushed the gender binary forever. Please buy rainbow covered items to show the binary is over.

Strangely despite the binary being ended they will alternate in power with Happy Trad Lion Land where only men and women exist and go to church while secretly watching porn. Just buy trad gender stuff and the binary will be stronger than ever they say.

The only way to stop gender stuff is by smashing it down and saying it doesn't matter. The clothes you wear are just social conventions. Labels whether trad or neo are social props.

That’s the perfect summary. So simple, true and bloody disastrous.

I think it is driven by virtue signalling. People want to be seen demonstrating how inclusive, open-minded, politically right on, up-to-date and unshockable they are. They jump on the latest bandwagon and anyone who doesn't agree with them is seen as the enemy. If you don't go along with their ideology you get cancelled, told you are a bigot, etc. It has a lot in common with chastisement from some extreme religious circles and far left or right political groups, past and present. Excommunication.

Yes, agreed.

Added to that, many younger people seem to want to be seen as activists - which all sounds lovely and fluffy, but in reality it's a big ego trip. Changing the world by posting on twitter from the safety and comfort of their parents house. Also known as Slactivism.

They have heard about the civil rights struggles, women's liberation of the past, have been taught in school about brave people who stood up to prejudice, and now want to be the ones who are celebrated as heroes.

Only they are backing a dud horse, and don't realise they are pawns being used to facilitate pharmaceutical company profits and middle aged men with fetishes. And sure it's only women and children who are really harmed so who cares?

IIRC thisis really how it started. Rich White Men.