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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why? What is the endgame for TRAs

250 replies

Brefugee · 31/10/2022 14:22

I keep wondering why this is all happening now. What was the actual trigger point of people like Nicola Sturgeon becoming so adamant that the rights of Trans people have to be promoted and fought for at this time?

Why is it desireable that GRCs be obtainable so quickly? Does it all go back to Foucault and his post-modernist cronies? What is it that Sturgeon and Trudeau and other governments who are falling over themselves to push a trans-agenda up to? what is in it for them?

To be clear: I'm not rabidly anti-trans and up to now it hasn't really impinged on my life in any other way (I did know two transwomen way back but have lost touch. I do know a couple of young transmen and they seem fine but i don't know them well). I am painfully aware, of course, that other people's lives are being hugely impacted by this (seemingly?) sudden surge in transwomen and am very keen, as a 2nd wave feminist, that women are protected and allowed to live their lives and achieve their full potential in any way they can/want to. (so I'm not TWAW - i'm in favour of either fully proper unisex spaces or 3rd spaces)

I just don't get why. Why now? Why Canada? Why Scotland? Why anywhere?

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 14:29

TheClogLady · 02/11/2022 14:27

Have you actually paid any attention to WHICH countries have enacted self ID?

I expect the Irish government aren’t patriarchal…

…hang on a minute

TheClogLady · 02/11/2022 14:31

Malta looks nice!

oh…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Malta

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/11/2022 14:43

If parents are abusing their children then contact the local designated safeguarding lead and go through the proper channels. Children identifying as the opposite sex are not getting the same level of safeguarding as other children, if it is believed that the parents are abusive then that needs to be properly investigated and a plan put in place. Instead the gender identity movement just advises to keep the child’s identity crisis secret from the parents. Anyone who has ever had safeguarding training knows that keeping secrets with children is absolutely forbidden and a serious red flag when it occurs and that if there is no immediate danger of harm discussion with the parents and working with the family is the best way forward. However, the biggest problem with this position is the assumption that not unequivocally accepting your child’s declaration of gender identity equates to abuse. Clearly it doesn’t. The gender identity movement seeks to undermine the relationship between children and their loving parents, it strives to end what I have seen described as the tyranny of the normal parent child relationship and free children as autonomous beings to make their own choices. That very much sounds like wanting to make impossible for parents to protect their children from predators, and to diminish the importance of the parent child relationship in law and society.

If a religious group, say Christians were baptising children without parents knowing about it and giving permission we wouldn’t say oh well of course they should be doing this in secret, parents are likely to be abusive if they know about it. Swap in the religious rites of initiation for any other religion. Sending out binders and socially transitioning children is on a whole other level. Parents have rights and responsibilities towards their children which it seems some people would rather see removed.

IcakethereforeIam · 02/11/2022 14:55

Doesn't take the whole organisation or all the organisations to be taken, just a few people in positions of influence or some people who are beyond criticism. Like the Catholic Church. Glad that won't happen again!

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 15:07

Hugocat1 · 02/11/2022 14:16

Who said anything about child protection services? We already have mermaids talking to children behind their parents backs and suggesting they move on an app that’s untraceable. This is ALREADY huge safeguarding issue.

So stop it with your faux ‘nothing to see here’ bs

This was one incident which was rectified. Any organisation who provides support services to children and vulnerable people will occassionally have staff or volunteers who breach bounderies or behave inappropriately. The question is how that is handled and whether the organisation can learn from it and make changes if necessary. Hopefully Mermaids have done so and a similar incident will not happen in the future.

A safeguarding breach by a staff member or volunteer of a children's charity however is not evidence of a secret paedophile plot to remove the age of consent for sex.

TheClogLady · 02/11/2022 15:10

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 15:07

This was one incident which was rectified. Any organisation who provides support services to children and vulnerable people will occassionally have staff or volunteers who breach bounderies or behave inappropriately. The question is how that is handled and whether the organisation can learn from it and make changes if necessary. Hopefully Mermaids have done so and a similar incident will not happen in the future.

A safeguarding breach by a staff member or volunteer of a children's charity however is not evidence of a secret paedophile plot to remove the age of consent for sex.

The Charity Commission has opened an investigation.

silly to pronounce that it was one incident - it was 2 (Breslow and Mew) for starters and they were uncovered by ordinary people looking at their internet footprint.

Who knows what will be found via a formal (and perhaps, even a criminal) investigation?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 15:23

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 14:06

What a non answer

please explain how perpetuating the idea that men think and feel one way, and women think and feel another does anything to break down the sexist stereotypes at the heart of patriarchy?

@livvyposts , I would genuinely love for you to explain how transgender ideology challenges patriarchy

any thoughts?

Happylittlechicken · 02/11/2022 16:53

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 13:25

Some stats. In a national study into incidents of child maltreatment in the US it was found that in 77.5% of cases the abuse was committed by a parent and in a further 10% was committed by a legal guardian, foster carer or partner of a parent: www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cb/cm2019.pdf#page=82

This isn't something those working with young people can or should ignore.

I think that stat relates to physical abuse, not sexual abuse?

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 16:58

Happylittlechicken · 02/11/2022 16:53

I think that stat relates to physical abuse, not sexual abuse?

It relates to all forms of abuse overall that were brought to the attention of services so sexual, physical, neglect and emotional.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 17:01

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 16:58

It relates to all forms of abuse overall that were brought to the attention of services so sexual, physical, neglect and emotional.

excellent, you're back

how does transgender ideology threaten the patriarchy?

Happylittlechicken · 02/11/2022 17:06

but Weren’t we talking about purely sexual abuse and how the TRA are trying to isolate vulnerable children from their parents? Weren’t mermaids sending binders and encouraging children to go behind their parents backs? Weren’t mermaids moderators encouraging children as young as 12 to use discord, which has a age rating of 17? Didn’t one of the trustees write a. Paper where he described having sex with a child as like having sex with a shoe?

AryaStarkWolf · 02/11/2022 17:13

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 12:56

I'm damn sure most other ordinary people in Ireland didn't either (and probably still don't

So a law which it is claimed would erase women and destroy women's rights forever was introduced in a country 6 years ago now and most people haven't even noticed? It's almost as if Self ID has had no impact on women at all, or at least not one they've noticed.

The Dentons report was published in 2019 incidentally, Self ID was introduced in Ireland in 2016.

Oh it's started don't you worry, people don't realise that it was snuck in and that is the actual law now though. There's already 2 violent "trans women" in Limerick prison.

also..

Why? What is the endgame for TRAs
Hugocat1 · 02/11/2022 17:14

Happylittlechicken · 02/11/2022 17:06

but Weren’t we talking about purely sexual abuse and how the TRA are trying to isolate vulnerable children from their parents? Weren’t mermaids sending binders and encouraging children to go behind their parents backs? Weren’t mermaids moderators encouraging children as young as 12 to use discord, which has a age rating of 17? Didn’t one of the trustees write a. Paper where he described having sex with a child as like having sex with a shoe?

Yes we was. But @livvyposts is trying to gas light a parenting forum that the real dangers are parents and absolutely not what you listed above. No way sireee ! - mermaids at el are saving our kids from us…..

We see what the end game is Livvy and it’s not gonna happen on our watch 🙂

Grammarnut · 02/11/2022 17:30

livvyposts · Today 12:56

I'm damn sure most other ordinary people in Ireland didn't either (and probably still don't

So a law which it is claimed would erase women and destroy women's rights forever was introduced in a country 6 years ago now and most people haven't even noticed? It's almost as if Self ID has had no impact on women at all, or at least not one they've noticed.

The Dentons report was published in 2019 incidentally, Self ID was introduced in Ireland in 2016.

People have noticed in the Republic of Ireland. Women have been assaulted in prisons because transwomen have been incarcerated in the female estate. Various feminist organisations (The Countess Didn't Fight for This, for example). The publication of the Denton report merely summed up what was already advice for e.g. transactivists wanting to get legislation on controversial issues through.

Grammarnut · 02/11/2022 17:31

Lost my thought. Various feminist organisations in the Republic of Ireland are fighting the self-ID laws surreptitiously introduced, is what I meant to say.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 18:48

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 16:58

It relates to all forms of abuse overall that were brought to the attention of services so sexual, physical, neglect and emotional.

come on @livvyposts , you're happy to lecture the people here, you're REALLY sure you're right

It should be a piece of piss to explain how transgenderism threatens the patriarchy

TheClogLady · 02/11/2022 19:18

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 16:58

It relates to all forms of abuse overall that were brought to the attention of services so sexual, physical, neglect and emotional.

All suspected cases of abuse should be properly examined through the legal framework of safeguarding.

Unfortunately the US does not have a robust statutory system like ours and it’s far easier for children to fall through the cracks (home schooling is much more common, it’s an enormous country so v difficult for teachers/youth workers/doctors (and even neighbours) to always have sight of an at risk child. Also private adoption is a thing, whereas all our fostered and adopted children have to be suoervised by the courts (so even in-family fostering is supervised by a social worker).

here we have early intervention plans that identify children who are ‘at risk’ and parents can be supported and mentored via Home Start so as ‘at risk’ never reaches neglect or abuse.

This is the system a charity like Mermaids should be participating in, they shouldn’t be sending dangerous self harming devices to children anonymously and schools certainly shouldn’t be transing children without their parents knowledge or the input of a multi disciplInary team (including a social worker).

In the UK every single child who is diagnosed with cancer is assigned a social worker, a MacMillan nurse, a named hospital consultant, a district/community nurse and optional psychological support from the hospital psychosocial service. Depending on the diagnosis there may be a second consultant (and sometimes even a third consultant) from another hospital department. If required a dietician, a physiotherapist, a play specialist (to help with distraction during tests and treatment) a specially trained dentist and orthotics/mobility aids assessor are also available.

That’s what an NHS multi disciplinary team looks like for a child with life threatening illness.

TRAs tell us that Gender Dysphoria is life threatening for children, but rather than have the child centred and supported by a team of experts, they send binders in the post (97% of FTM or FTNB people who bind experience significant side effects) and recommend online doctors who aren’t fit to practise: Sometimes adult activists even supply black market pharmaceuticals to minors (eg Keffals friend and the ‘Catboy ranch’.

If a child/teen has a cross sex gender identity and 41% of people with a cross sex gender identity have attempted suicide, then any adult in a professional role has a duty of care to either inform the parents (so that the parents can lock away cutting implements, and prescription drugs etc) and keep the child under close supervision (aka suicide watch). IF the adult is worried that disclosing the child’s gender identity to the parents would put the child in some sort of danger then the adult has a duty to engage safeguarding protocols (tell their line manager, inform social services and if the danger is immediate, call the police).

i want children and teens with gender Dysphoria to be properly supervised by a multi disciplinary team - not exposed to paedophiles and other sexually Inappropriate adults through a dodgy charity who doesn’t seem to know what safeguarding actually is.

I certainly do not want a teen with gender Dysphoria to be anonymously supplied with a dubious device that can cause lasting lung and and rib problems, especially by a random adult who has no idea of the teens medical history and the additional dangers that a preexisting diagnosis such as asthma or hyper mobility disorder or an eating disorder could pose.

Proper safeguarding is closing up the circle, with all adults involved in the child’s care (parents, teacher, GP, social worker, psychologist et al) communicating clearly and often.

Children with gender Dysphoria deserve high quality, multi disciplinary health care. They shouldn’t get LESS attention than other children with serious or chronic illness, disabilities or SEN.

Anyone who argues for less than equal supervision is a massive safeguarding red flag.

No secrets. No errant paedos. No exposure to adult sexual interests and activities and certainly NO SODDING DISCORD (which, for the record, is age rated at 17+)

Lilifer · 02/11/2022 19:28

JanieAllen · 31/10/2022 16:25

Performative Progressiveism which is why its worst in small countries, NZ, Scotland, Canada

And Ireland

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 20:04

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/11/2022 15:23

@livvyposts , I would genuinely love for you to explain how transgender ideology challenges patriarchy

any thoughts?

Firstly, gender as an oppresive system which has been used to facilitate male domination cannot function in the same way if the link to physical sex is broken. That seems to me a necessary first step in dismantling the gender binary.

Secondly the idea of women as a sex class was intially intended as a metaphore for the way Marxism understood class struggle - that women essentially were a political class who faced misogyny and discrimination at the hands of the male sex class. The end goal of Marxism is the elimination of the class system completely and this was the aim of many early radical feminists - as Shulamith Firestone wrote 'genitals would no longer matter culturally'.

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 20:10

Gender critical feminism is essentially liberalism, in that it accepts male violence and the oppression women face as inevitable and so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces within that oppression. Much like liberals accept capitalist exploitation as inevitable and believe the best that can be hoped for is a few concessions within that to minimise the suffering it causes. True radicals, of both the second and third wave, seek to overthrow the entire system of patriarchal domination so that safe spaces are no longer necessary.

BlessedKali · 02/11/2022 20:16

That is the most fucking ridiculous thing I have read.

BlessedKali · 02/11/2022 20:17

So what you are saying is that we aim for a utopia where men no longer abuse women.

NecessaryScene · 02/11/2022 20:18

True radicals, of both the second and third wave, seek to overthrow the entire system of patriarchal domination so that safe spaces are no longer necessary.

And you have a plan for this? Tell me more.

BlessedKali · 02/11/2022 20:20

This is the probem eith this movement, and queer theory and all that bollocks...

You basically have a load of middle class university student discussing things theoretically.

Meanwhile women ARE killed every three days by male partners, women are regulary raped, children ARE abused. You can talk and theorise and make up imaginary utopian futures all you like but it doesnt change the fact of what IS ACTUALLY happening, in the real world.

DialSquare · 02/11/2022 20:20

livvyposts · 02/11/2022 20:10

Gender critical feminism is essentially liberalism, in that it accepts male violence and the oppression women face as inevitable and so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces within that oppression. Much like liberals accept capitalist exploitation as inevitable and believe the best that can be hoped for is a few concessions within that to minimise the suffering it causes. True radicals, of both the second and third wave, seek to overthrow the entire system of patriarchal domination so that safe spaces are no longer necessary.

I'm surprised you haven't burnt a hole in your navel with all that gazing.