Anyone following the James Esses vs UKCP test case?

[WomenShouldWinWomensSports]

Just seen this on DM website. So far he has won the right to sue and the therapeutic approach to gender seems to be the central issue: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11331573/Ex-barrister-wins-right-sue-kicked-degree-gender-critical-views.html
What happens next? Do they wait months and months for another hearing or do they tend to happen quite fast once the preliminary has reached court?

Covered by the times today too

Former barrister ejected by college over gender beliefs wins right to sue

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9d02e898-4faf-11ed-b120-ca4f3ffbcdc5?shareToken=a6ba6c54732ab392a86a1301de11f047

Esses is arguing transition - irreversible hormones and surgeries - should not be the automatic treatment for a child expressing feelings of gender dysphoria. He believes the root causes of the presenting issues should be worked with. Otherwise known as psychotherapy. And very much in line with the growing movement to depathologise mental health, where much of what we label as a disorder is better understood to be a natural reaction to our experiences and the environments we find ourselves in.

I still can't get my head around the fact that a college that teaches psychotherapy disagrees. And I really worry how I'd ever find an ethical therapist for my kids should they need one.

Does anyone know when the employment tribunal will sit to consider this case?

Esses is arguing transition - irreversible hormones and surgeries - should not be the automatic treatment for a child expressing feelings of gender dysphoria. He believes the root causes of the presenting issues should be worked with. Otherwise known as psychotherapy.

OTHERWISE KNOWN AS CONVERSION THERAPY OTHERWISE KNOWN AS TORTURE

It's torture to talk about why a child might think they have been born in the wrong body?

Of course it is. (Yawn) Is it half term?

I am always amazed at people who argue for less evidence in medicine. I can't think of another area of science where people think less data, less robust investigation is a good idea.

You might be right 'real feminist'. Maybe refusing to medically experiment on children IS torture. But why not do the proper research on it first? Why irreversibly damage children's bodies without knowing for sure that that's the best option?

In answer to the thread title, yes, me!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4658773-james-esses-given-permission-to-challenge-ukcp-over-being-thrown-off-his-degree-course-for-raising-concerns-over-medicalising-gender-confused-children

You are of the opinion that psychotherapy is conversion therapy and torture? Could you explain a little more about that please?

Psychotherapy is, as I said, an exploration of root causes. I've had it for trauma from male violence. We explored the event itself, my upbringing, the societal norms and values at the time (rape culture, lad culture, porn, misogyny), my socioeconomic status as a child & how that fed into feelings of low self worth.

Correct me if I am wrong. But you are suggesting a child presenting with gender dysphoria should be denied that?

No exploration of school and parental attitudes (sexism, homophobia), life events (abuse, divorce), wider culture (intense sexualisation of girls), neurodiversity, socioeconomic status (middle class parents working all hours, lots of unsupervised Internet)?

@RealFeminist Is this a spoof? I can't tell anymore.

No need to engage - they're doing the usual dishonest thing of pretending words mean different words.

It's pathetic and shows a total lack of comprehension of what torture actually is.

To answer your last question, there are many sensible pragmatic psychotherapists. The institutions have been captured but a great many practitioners have not. Have to keep the head down for fear of being kicked out/struck off but if you are looking for a therapist ask outright where they stand in this stuff. Handily it is also quite easy to tell by who has pronouns in their online profile.
Very grateful to James for taking one for the team!

I think going forward conversion therapy will be interesting to follow. The definition according to the Scottish Government is:

“any treatment, practice or effort that aims to change, suppress and/or eliminate a person's sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression.”

To me there is an obvious conflict between sexual orientation and gender identity. For example as more detransitioners come forward with the realisation that they were gay I'm sure there will be questions about whether affirmation therapy has failed them and has actually been a type of conversion therapy.

I have to admit I have always thought it odd that when a partner transitions and the other partner is encouraged to believe that their sexual orientation has changed, this too is a type of enforced conversion therapy - it seems to meet the definition above.

I guess this will all become more evident through the court system.

I am currently undertaking my psychotherapy training and I find myself in a similar position where I feel my GCB and questioning of the current management of trans adolescents which echoes the reason why treatment has been stopped in Sweden, Florida and the UK has resulted in one of my colleagues flagging this to the lead course organiser (who is trans) who coerced my colleague to disclose my name as they deemed it a professional/fitness to practice issue. I have been asked to attend a meeting to ‘see how I am’.

@TheClogLady thanks I’ll head on over and take a look.

Asking someone how they feel or listening while they talk about it isn’t conversion therapy. The goal is not to convert someone. In therapy, the therapists do not advise clients on anything but rather to help them look inside themselves and reach a conclusion that is right for them, whichever way that goes.

If you have an abortion you are asked if you’re sure you don’t want to be pregnant, and you are asked if anyone is pressuring you to have the abortion, if you want to remove an appendage/appendages and lose the function of those organs for the rest of your life, it should be the same safeguards in place.

@RealFeminist - stop “SHOUTING”, please.

Oh I had thought this was parody but it seems not.

@RealFeminist do you think we should ignore the experiences of unhappy detransitioners?

RealFeminist, I just want to check that you understand that typing in upper case often means that someone with visual problems who uses reading software (which reads the text aloud to them) is probably deafened by your messages. Upper case literally shout at them. And make the rest of the world wonder about the, er, capacity of the poster.

And make the rest of the world wonder about the, er, capacity of the poster.

I believe that is the point. I mean, I cannot be the only one who immediately hears Nicola's voice reading those posts. She is a 'real feminist' after all....

@RealFeminist

Your post actually confuses me.

This thread is a great illustration of why terms used to describe issues related to homophobia are completely inappropriate to discuss trans issues. And the enormous conflict of interests between the needs and rights of homosexual people and the aim of the trans movement.

The concepts of ‘conversion therapy’ as applied to gender issues is beyond problematic. No wonder the standard TRA response is to (literally shout) down any rational discussion of the term or it’s implications.