Anyone following the James Esses vs UKCP test case?

[WomenShouldWinWomensSports]

Just seen this on DM website. So far he has won the right to sue and the therapeutic approach to gender seems to be the central issue: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11331573/Ex-barrister-wins-right-sue-kicked-degree-gender-critical-views.html
What happens next? Do they wait months and months for another hearing or do they tend to happen quite fast once the preliminary has reached court?

@Manderleyagain I agree - I also find it more worrying that my colleague has become distressed with evidence despite us being on a course that reinforces the need for this in our practice. But I'm also aware how trans ideology has knowingly captured those who want to clap along but with eyes closed because to even question risks being called transphobic. Much of my work involves exploration of someones world and get with this topic - it is a no go.

How awful, Sparkly. How can this person work effectively in this field if they are not only incredibly fragile, but also a bully.

Have a look at the Free Speech Union as well. Best of luck

Yes, good luck Sparkly. I just hope that this madness all ends soon - it's helping no-one.

Sparkly - can you take someone in with you to the meeting? Someone from the SU?

This I'd what I was thinking of.
www.engage.england.nhs.uk/specialised-commissioning/gender-dysphoria-services/

They have published a draft of the planned service for children/youth that will replace GIDS and are running a consultation. It could change after the consultation but at the mo it emphasises psychological support rather than medical transition, and is cautious of social transition.

What I've postscript might be the sane as you posted but in a different format. I'm not sure.

@chilling19 yes I'll be taking a union rep in with me - chatting with them tomorrow so ill update everyone after

@Manderleyagain I hadn't actually seen this one so thank you. I'll be putting my two pennies worth in. Despite all these reports, the BACP haven't released anything. One of the major issues I face is the real concern that many therapists have of working with trans clients and not providing affirmative care and instead being explorative which is then perceived as being conversion therapy. It's all very wooly and means lots of therapists don't work with trans clients because of this potential litigious ethical trap. The particular tutor who's gunning for me stated to my colleague who came to them that GC views are not compatible with affirmative care, it appears that in this instance, this tutor not only spouts frankly unsubstantiated damaging crap but forgets the great lengths that trainees and therapists go to to work on providing unconditional positive regard for all our clients, of course not completely impenetrable! But acts as a cornerstone of providing an empathetic therapeutic relationship. For this tutor to act on such perceived threat demonstrates their own lack of ring fencing capability. I'm not even working with trans clients! My crime at this stage is simply exploring the issue and daring to speak against the damage that trans ideology has done and is the very reason that the medical world has had to stop and reflect and move to change everything moving forward. Part of me is intrigued by their actions whilst the other part of me is petrified of the power they hold and how they could abuse it. This is where I have to have faith in the union.

Thanks for the update, Sparkly. That all sounds good and promising. I wonder if there is a need for you to actually counter-complain against the tutor? It sounds like he is not fulfilling his duties and is actively seeking to bully you.

BACP is proper captured due to the influence of Meg John Barker. I will find the thread from when this document was published:

www.bacp.co.uk/media/5877/bacp-gender-sexual-relationship-diversity-gpacp001-april19.pdf

It really bothers me because BACP oversee hundreds if not thousands of school counsellors via the the Place2Be charity.

If you did end up in a legal dispute with BACP I would crowdfund the fuck out of it.

However, getting your qualification signed off and having someone like you in the work place is also extremely important so whatever is best for you works for me

Glad you had such a positive response from the Free Speech Union and the SU.

this is the main thread of several:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

FFS

Conversion therapy is explicit attempts made to turn a gay/bi person straight or a trans person cisgender. Exploration in itself is not a problem.

Conversion therapy has been prohibited for reputable therapists and orgs for 5 years via the memorandum of understanding on CT and no one has blinked.

As someone with far more experience than Esses, I'd love to get the transcripts on what he was actually saying in those conversations. We've only heard from his perspective and I strongly suspect (particularly given his subsequent anti-trans activism) he was doing a lot more than he said he was..and badly.

Conversion therapy is explicit attempts made to turn a gay/bi person straight or a trans person cisgender. Exploration in itself is not a problem.

Conversion therapy has been prohibited for reputable therapists and orgs for 5 years via the memorandum of understanding on CT and no one has blinked.

As someone with far more experience than Esses, I'd love to get the transcripts on what he was actually saying in those conversations. We've only heard from his perspective and I strongly suspect (particularly given his subsequent anti-trans activism) he was doing a lot more than he said he was..and badly.

So. If exploration is not a problem why is this not very specifically detailed in the bill? And all the treatments that then relate to that exploration's outcomes?

And why do we have other countries who have not used the words to protect the exploration charging people for 'conversion therapy' related crimes or having children removed from parents.

Why do you have more experience at counselling people than Esses? Really? You are qualified in counselling? And at law? Because he is also an ex-barrister and knows something about how law is applied.

But really, why if it exploratory treatment is not an issue, isn't a specific bill being discussed to make sure that trans people receive the very highest in quality care and leaving ambiguity as to what conversion therapy means in regards to trans care.

Surely, with the lessons that we are learning every week, specificity is the key so no more ambiguity sneaks through.

Just a reminder that James Esse has been talking about children - the concern of most of the women and mothers on here. The psychological, mental health and long term wellbeing of children
The problems with conversion therapy relate to banning therapists and other professionals from exploring issues with vulnerable and often mentally unwell children.

And making sure that children are unambiguously protected is absolutely what we need to have.

And strangely the more the Cass interim report gets analysed and disseminated the more that organisations are now beginning to also raise doubts.

I suspect some activists are very, very keen to have this bill in place before the Cass report comes out. And the studies that she has started are published.

And the more detransitioners speak.

Conversion therapy has been prohibited for reputable therapists and orgs for 5 years via the memorandum of understanding on CT and no one has blinked.

And yet, here you are very very keen to have some ambiguous law passed when you say there has been protection for '5 years' and 'no one has blinked'.

Why the hurry?

Conversion therapy is explicit attempts made to turn a gay/bi person straight or a trans person cisgender. Exploration in itself is not a problem.

Ignoring that "cisgender" is felt as a very offensive term by many here, this presupposes that "transness" is something innate. And a trans child is expressing this innate "transness".

What feminists are saying is that a child declaring a trans identity is expressing something. That something could be trauma, abuse, being gay in a homophobic environment, being non neurotypical. Good therapy would explore this. It might result in the child relinquishing the trans identity.

At what point does it become conversion therapy?

I have therapy for childhood trauma. Whilst I want more advocacy and understanding for people like me, my ptsd has not been reified as something innate. I have both deeply explored my past and worked on relieving present day symptoms. It has been enormously helpful. I think it is concerning that people, especially children, who declare a trans identity risk not getting the same level of care.

The prinicipal reason that the so “MoU Conversion Therapy” has been extant with no one blinking for five years is that is has been foisted on professional bodies without any consultation whatsoever with their members. The only professional bodies to have consulted their members have declined to be signatories. subsequent to this stealthy manoeuvre by a completely unaccountable and invisible “coalition” of activists there is a palpable atmosphere of intimidation around the issue of which the Esses case is just one example.

Where professionals become acquainted with the evidence from the Tavistock GIDS case, the Cass report and so on they are almost unanimously appalled.

update

So the tutor who wants the meeting to ‘see how I am’ then changed to this is not a request has now asked to see the actual conversation. Both the union and my supervisor have seen the conversation and both have declared there is nothing transphobic about it but a critical stance of where we are now and what would be better moving forward (as outlined in the case report). I don't want to send the same conversation because how much power can this person demand? I will let the free speech union review all evidence and ask them where I stand on sending anything. I think I mistakenly left identifiable evidence in a previous link - MN kindly removed it (thank you MN).

Here is the reply from the free speech union -

Hi Sparkly

I think we will be able to advise you in this situation - we have had, unfortunately, no shortage of similar cases in recent months. Including several involving counsellors, psychologists and mental health professionals of various specialisms.

Could I ask in the first instance if you are a member of ours? It's not a problem if you aren't, you can sign-up heree_ and you'd be eligible for our student rate.

We'd then need to see the recent correspondence you describe, to see exactly what has been said. That would of course be treated in strict confidence. When we've had chance to review that, it would be good to speak on the phone at your earliest convenience.

Best wishes,

Glad to see you're getting support Sparkly. I don't want to be critical but maybe be cautious about posting too much on this thread? There's so much external monitoring of this board I'd hate your comments to be picked up.
Sorry if this sounds interfering - it's good to see you getting support in what must be so stressful so just ignore me if you think it's over cautious / interfering.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

You sadly make a very good point. I'll slow down feedback.

As someone with far more experience than Esses, I'd love to get the transcripts on what he was actually saying in those conversations. We've only heard from his perspective and I strongly suspect (particularly given his subsequent anti-trans activism) he was doing a lot more than he said he was..and badly.

I agree, in that a tribunal is the place where the public will find out exactly what the facts are. That's why I've chipped in to see it go to court. I have chipped in for a number of law suits where someone has lost work, been put through disciplinary processes etc for saying things that were deemed transphobic because I want to find out exactly where that line is. I in fact hope that there is something beyond the pale that actually warrants the treatment in each case, otherwise people are being treated terribly by employers & regulators for acting reasonably. So far, though sometimes the person has said things I wouldn't personally, the courts have always found that the person hadn't crossed a line & has in fact been treated unfairly. The most recent was the social worker whose regulator dropped the case against her. The facts established showed she had shared mostly newspaper articles & had used no unacceptable language. So I was left with the realisation that she had been treated appallingly for doing what everyone in a democracy should defend the right to do.

So I agree the facts are not known and its v possible there is more to it. The details will be laid bare. I rather suspect there will be less to it rather than more, but we'll see.

I'm really struggling today. I'm dreaming within dreams - like inception, so when I do wake - I'm confused where I am. I'm snappy with kids and today I just want to bury my head.

I was sent this by the free speech union though which is similar to what is happening to me and I thought others may find helpful

freespeechunion.org/letter-to-professor-martin-jones-vice-chancellor-and-chief-executive-of-staffordshire-university-regarding-the-investigation-into-professor-james-treadwell-by-staffordshire-university/