Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?

[teawamutu]

Something I'm worrying about - the Tory shitshow is so comprehensive it's looking like Labour just have to hang on until the next election and step into government. Doesn't give them much incentive to listen to women, does it?

I hope I'm wrong but it's on my mind.

Let's face it Labour MP's also know what a woman is. But for whatever reason they have become obsessed with securing the rights of a tiny minority of men over the interests of women. And to achieve that they lie that they no longer know what they knew to be true 5 years ago. And they're prepared to bring in laws that force the rest of us to lie about it too

Again, why obsessing with Labour about it

You should be aiming your anger at the people who can change what is happening, the party who are lying to you saying they will change things, they haven't, they have proven they havent. But yet you dont address their failings just keep talking about labour, it sounds ridiculous.

Penny mordaunt told the house of commons "transmen are men and transwomen are women".

I think Penny Mordaunt is going to be our next Prime Minister.

I think Penny Mordaunt is going to be our next Prime Minister

I agree

She might be but if Boris is up against her with membership I reckon he’d get it

Depends on MPs first

Surely it'll be Sunak? Why risk another inexperienced candidate?

So yes, a tory party problem confused. They are in power so they are the ones who need to be held account as they are the ones who have the power to have changed the issues, but chose not to.

The Tories chose not to go ahead with Self-ID.
They chose not to go ahead with a "trans" conversion therapy ban.
They chose to commission the Cass Review which lead to the closure of the Tavistock and to an overhaul of the medical experimentation of children.
They have clarified that Schools should not be teaching children that they can be born in the wrong body.
They have put someone in the EHRC who has actually clarified the law to say that it allows for sex segregated spaces.
They have a proposed bill to protect academic freedom in universities.
There has been a review of prison policy (which by all accounts was a bit of a fudge but perhaps a step in the right direction).
Withdrawing many departments from the Stonewall "diversity scheme"

Trans ideology is not a problem of the Tories making and they have been frustratingly slow to act against it (probably because initially, like many people, they believed it was a progressive cause and they could get brownie points by going along with it). But they were finally moving slowly in a direction that was away from an extreme gender ideological position. Now that the Tories are in free fall that progress will probably stop because there will be no time for such "unimportant" issues. The hope was that by the next election more progress could have been made so that when Labour finally take over it will be harder for them to do damage.

The argument is NOT that the Tories are better for women in general or that people must vote Tory at the next election, just that on this issue Labour have promised a policy that will harm women and possibly children if they bring in therapy bans for children.

I would hold the labour government to account if they were in power and professing to stop these issues, but still not doing so.

Labour have not said they are planning to stop these issues. If you believe what they say they are planning to embrace a trans ideological position and legislate accordingly. So you will have nothing to hold them to account for.

From the current labour stance i cannot see anything changing than what it currently is.

So you don't think Labour intend to bring in Self ID or a "conversion therapy" ban for "trans" children?

Honestly, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

They're putting 2 candidates to the party membership on Monday(?) Sunak is still unpopular with a lot of the members. And I'm sure Jeremy Hunt doesn't want him getting in the way.

Penny Mordaunt is popular with the membership. Does good PMQs. And won't meddle too much in what the Chancellor is doing.

I honestly can't believe that they will not speak out now. If they did it together, as a group, they would be in a very good position to make it clear that the LP needs to stop blocking candidates who have terfy views on this. "Labour ejects 30 MPs" is a shocking headline no matter how you slice it.

Sure, there is a risk they could end up being deselected, even ejected from the party. But being deselected by the voters is always a possibility in politics so presumably they are ready for that in a way people in regular jobs often are not.

I think maybe people are thinking back and wondering if they made a mistake to get rid of him.

But I don't think PM was left in a good place at all at the end of the leadership race, and Truss's failure won't make her look better - maybe worse. I'd put my chips on Sunak, people will want someone they believe knows something practical about money.

The argument is NOT that the Tories are better for women in general or that people must vote Tory at the next election, just that on this issue Labour have promised a policy that will harm women and possibly children if they bring in therapy bans for children

So why are you not holding them to account also for the issues they are not solving. Why do you just drag the one point of labour around, it devalues the debate massively when there are people just concentrating on the potential issues that may come about.

Rather than highlighting how these issues are being allowed to continue, you can make all the lists you like, but under our current government womens rights are not being protected. We shouldn't be ignoring this for 2 years or aiming our worries at 2 years away, distracting from the current government failings we should be holding this government to account now. And guess what, they are still letting us down.

Again Penny Mordaunt said "Transmen are men, Transwomen are women"
Whats your view on that from the tories who know what a woman is?

I'm sorry but why should I place my faith in this mystery group of Labour MPs? If they haven't got the nerve to speak up now why on earth should I trust them when there's a chief whip wrestling them into the self ID voting lobby?

I normally sympathise with anyone who feels they have to keep their head down - Lord knows I do it myself. But then I'm not running for public office.

I'm not obsessed and I'm not angry. I am actually quite dispassionate politics in general. I recognise Labour are likely to win at the next election and I recognise that they are probably, on balance, marginally better for women (on a population level) but I also recognise that they are likely to bring in Self ID and other authoritarian legislation that impact more on individual women. I strongly disagree with this proposed legislation. These are Labour policies that I am critical of, they are not Tory policies. If they were Tory policies I would still be critical of them. Labour will potentially be in power very soon. I have every right to be critical of their policies.

Time is a thing.

People have been holding the Tories to account, it's why things have been happening. No one has stopped.

The fact that there is a political crisis at the moment is the issue. It means that they are not really looking at social policy.

But what is really the impetus of the thread is the possibility, which seems quite real, that there will be some kind of confidence issue and they will not be able to continue to form the government.

And chances are that will mean a Labour government soon. Before the Tories have had a chance to really solidify the changes and protections needed, and while gender ideology is really just at a tipping point.

If Labour is in soon, it is still very possible for them to go ahead with the policies they are talking about, within a year there could be legislation on the table around things like misgendering being a hate crime. Which could make even talking about this issue in the public sphere difficult. If they extend the conversion therapy ban it means parents will be between a rock and a hard place if their kids need to see a professional therapist.

This is an urgent concern, about an imminent possibility. And people should be damn well scared that Labour is not coming round about this. The Tories have, largely, but Labour is still captured, the supposedly existing terfy Labour MPs are too chicken to speak out, and there could be a Labour government within six months.

So why are you not holding them to account also for the issues they are not solving.

People including users of this board do. We write letters to our Tory MPs, we participated in the GRA consultation, we help fund other women’s legal battles against various authorities like the college of policing, like Tavistock, councils… I mean where have you been? But the very basic starting point, sex self ID & the sex based rights women and girls are currently entitled to, is a huge concern for all the reasons already outlined.

Mordaunt was left in the best place at the end of the leadership race because she didn't enter that awful round of gouging. She is sufficiently distanced from PM Johnson. She appeals to the ERG wing.

Penny Mordaunt is going to be our next PM. We are fucked.

I’m actually kind of amused at the thought we might end up back with BoJo.

’BOUNCE BACK BORIS!’

The headlines write themselves.

Liz probably didn’t even get a chance to have Carrie’s fancy wallpaper taken down.

So why are you not holding them to account also for the issues they are not solving. Why do you just drag the one point of labour around, it devalues the debate massively when there are people just concentrating on the potential issues that may come about.

Ffs what do you expect me to do to hold the Tories to account? I won't be voting for them at the general election does that help? I am critical that the Tories haven't moved fast enough to deal with gender ideology but at least some of their MPs are making the effort. I am critical that the Tories fudged the prisons review. I write to my Tory MP so frequently that he no longer bothers to reply.

I am still critical of proposed Labour legislation because I think it will harm women. How does that devalue the debate?

I just nabbed this from another thread

Guido Fawkes has a more up to date spreadsheet:
order-order.com/2022/10/20/whos-backing-who-the-spreadsheet-returns/

Johnson currently on 38
Sunak on 27
Mordaunt on 12

They really do

Oh I just had such a good laugh with DH at the thought of Boris coming back and knocking out the wall between 10 & 11 to really open up the space for parties 😂 he couldn’t possibly come back? Surely not.

100 supporters by Monday is a big task and I don’t think Penny can do it.

Will she drop out early enough to give Rishi her supporters if Rishi promises her one of the big cabinet positions?

if it goes to the membership, Boris will win.

I agree with Guido though - Boris can command huge amounts of dosh as an after dinner speaker, way more than the PM job pays. Will he prioritise easy money or revenge on his political enemies?

Could go either way.

He’s flying back early apparently, so he must be keen

It would make him some sort of weird political legend.

Imagine how jealous Trump would be!

I agree it's too big a hill to climb for Mordaunt. The schmoozing and moderate incompetence can only take her so far, and she is at that point now and probably beyond it.

And carrying a lot of baggage.

I suppose it doesn't really matter who it is. They have lost their credibility ERG/IEA's credibility... whoever it is needs to hang in until January 2025.

I've decided to rejoin the Labour Party and wait for the peak. It's going to happen soon. It's turning in Scotland already with a lot of opposition to the GRA bill... Leader of Scottish Labour, Anas Sarwar knows a woman has a cervix for a start.