Page 10 | Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?

teawamutu · 2022-10-17T17:51:30+00:00

Something I'm worrying about - the Tory shitshow is so comprehensive it's looking like Labour just have to hang on until the next election and step into government. Doesn't give them much incentive to listen to women, does it? I hope I'm wrong but it's on my mind.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/10/2022 10:16

Great move. Labour are going to gain more power soon. They already run Wales and most major cities. They have to be fought from within as well as without.

Yep.

AnnieHoooo · 21/10/2022 11:56

I found what Anas Sarwar said. When asked if a woman could possess a penis he answered "you can't argue with biology".

Signalbox · 21/10/2022 12:02

AnnieHoooo · 21/10/2022 11:56

I found what Anas Sarwar said. When asked if a woman could possess a penis he answered "you can't argue with biology".

Ha ha good answer :)

MangyInseam · 21/10/2022 12:46

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2022 10:09

Say Johnson wins. And does manage to turn the tory shit show around. Which isn't beyond the realms of possibility in my mind...

... Do you think it will focus Labour minds in terms of the lack of substance and avoidance of difficult subjects that they've perused for several years?

I was watching politics live the other day and there was a tory and a Labour MP. And they got onto the subject of the Single market. The tory said that the subject was incredibly sensitive for the party but admitted that he thought that a Norway type approach Inc the single market was a good idea. Meanwhile the Labour has clearly been briefed to avoid the subject completely and wouldn't be drawn at all apart from to say the party policy isn't to do that. The interviewer commented on the irony of seeing a tory more pro EU than a Labour politician.

The thing that's stuck with me on this is how its completely screwed in the head. There isn't any room for debate within Labour. It's repeat the party line by rout and being absolutely terrified at how the electorate might respond to you encouraging debate

Where they have policy they now actively crush any discussion about flaws which might help deal with any unintended consequences that the policy might have.

The trans stuff is particularly indicative of this, but it's certainly not the only subject (hence me mentioning above conversation about the EU).

What I'm finding particularly frustrating with opposition parties is this lack of commitment to debate which also makes it much harder to hold government to account where they should! Cos it might upset the bloody electorate!

Yet they then decide what they are prepared to also let the electorate talk about!! And what their own members can say.

Its bonkers and lacking in any responsibility or commitment to trying to engage with the public, to listen to it and ultimately be representative.

One of the questions of the week has been along these lines and what is the purpose of politicians? To rule or to serve?

Strangely, one reason why the Queen was successful was because she understood the optics of the difference between the two and she tried to drum this into Charles and William.

Labour isn't unique in this.

And ironically as much as i despise many many tory policies and think they have hugely damaged the party, i do admire their understanding on the importance of being able to have different opinions and encouraging debate to a level that I don't think exists in other parties anymore.

Its deeply troubling as a dynamic to see playing out in politics.

Yes, yes, this is it exactly.

In as much as the Tories have some bad policies, and Labour has some good ones, Labour seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a political party is and how it should function. It really hearkens back to the old authoritarian left model where the supposed intelligentsia is meant to set the agenda for the plebs to follow along with.

Even if all their policies at the moment were better, that's incredibly disturbing, because history shows us what happens with that model.

MangyInseam · 21/10/2022 12:54

Oh, and FWIW, I don't have much sense that the LP has even an inkling that this structural authoritarianism is a problem. They might decide, maybe, that their gender policy is a problem, but they will not come to terms with their authoritarian or identarian problems IMO.

Floisme · 21/10/2022 13:18

MangyInseam · 21/10/2022 12:54

Oh, and FWIW, I don't have much sense that the LP has even an inkling that this structural authoritarianism is a problem. They might decide, maybe, that their gender policy is a problem, but they will not come to terms with their authoritarian or identarian problems IMO.

Yes, this expresses very well what I was trying to get at when I said nothing would induce me to rejoin the Labour Party. I might be persuaded to lend them my vote again but, even if they abandon their gender identity stance, all my respect and trust has gone. I don't want to be part of them any more.

I might pinch the phrase 'structural authoritarianism' if you don't mind, thank you.

MangyInseam · 21/10/2022 15:28

Floisme · 21/10/2022 13:18

Yes, this expresses very well what I was trying to get at when I said nothing would induce me to rejoin the Labour Party. I might be persuaded to lend them my vote again but, even if they abandon their gender identity stance, all my respect and trust has gone. I don't want to be part of them any more.

I might pinch the phrase 'structural authoritarianism' if you don't mind, thank you.

Show quote history

Pinch away!

I seem to recall, on the subject of authoritarianism in the LP, that Trevor Phillips said something about it in the interview he did with the Triggernormatry guys. I can't remember the whole exchange, but he said something to the effect that under Blair there had been a desire to have more control over what MPs said. He felt that there was some utility in this as it was important for voters to be able to know what they were really voting for. But he seemed to think it had gone too far.

I may have a look at it again, it was a very good interview.