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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?

232 replies

teawamutu · 17/10/2022 18:51

Something I'm worrying about - the Tory shitshow is so comprehensive it's looking like Labour just have to hang on until the next election and step into government. Doesn't give them much incentive to listen to women, does it?

I hope I'm wrong but it's on my mind.

OP posts:
ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 09:00

Jesus wept. Women have tried, for years and years, to talk to the left about this issue. We have just been dismissed as bigot terfs, had our names put on lists and in some cases been hounded out of political parties we've been members of for years!

Signalbox · 20/10/2022 09:00

*is about damage control

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 09:12

No I don't really give that much of a fuck about Labour, but you don't win a campaign this way.

what way? What campaign? You don’t care about Labour but you care anyone, what, votes Tory? Prefers their stance on self ID? What ‘way’ won’t win a campaign? You don’t make any sense

FiveMins · 20/10/2022 09:17

@Signalbox I think we are coming from the same place. I'm just frustrated because I knew this would happen and was shouted down every time.
The inability of some on the left to be able to be open to this topic is HUGELY frustrating. However I think the conversation of suggesting people to vote Tory is equally as frustrating and has damaged the cause even more. Lots of the more vocal Labour PPL members around here are beginning to get listen to. But it's very slow and by making it into a culture war will make those who are beginning to feel like it could be a bigger issue not see it for what it is but just see it as a right wing hate campaign.

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 09:20

However I think the conversation of suggesting people to vote Tory is equally as frustrating and has damaged the cause even more

How? Exactly how has women leaving the Labour Party hurt the ‘cause’ I’m assuming you mean is persuading the left that women aren’t a feeling in a man’s head. I mean if it has, what does it say about Labour and the left? Why would we want to bother with them if leaving and withdrawing support over a women’s rights issue makes them more determined to take away our rights? Why should a woman support Labour at all?

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 09:24

just see it as a right wing hate campaign.

Again, what does that say about them? If female Labour members happen to think the same on a womens issue as a right wing party, then the rest of Labour decide those former Labour members have suddenly decided to become 1 right wing and 2 hateful. You do realise that sounds utterly stupid? That just makes me want to not work or support Labour and the ‘left’ even more.

Also, quick question, do you actually think the only people who can be hateful are on the right in politics?

Zebracat · 20/10/2022 09:26

@5mins is just disruptive. I don’t think they care about making sense. I do know that I’m not taking lectures from anyone who calls us terfs.

Floisme · 20/10/2022 09:29

No, their inability to listen to women's concerns about their sex based right is not frustrating - it's disgraceful and it's unforgivable.

And if you've been on this board for years you should know full well that many of us are lifelong Labour voters, some of us used to be members. But we have had enough of being patronised, belittled, and being told off for hanging out with the wrong crowd.

If party members choose to interpret that as hate speech then the issue is with their comprehension skills, not with us.

scaredoff · 20/10/2022 09:30

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 09:20

However I think the conversation of suggesting people to vote Tory is equally as frustrating and has damaged the cause even more

How? Exactly how has women leaving the Labour Party hurt the ‘cause’ I’m assuming you mean is persuading the left that women aren’t a feeling in a man’s head. I mean if it has, what does it say about Labour and the left? Why would we want to bother with them if leaving and withdrawing support over a women’s rights issue makes them more determined to take away our rights? Why should a woman support Labour at all?

She didn't say leaving the Labour party, She said suggesting that people vote Tory.

FiveMins · 20/10/2022 09:34

I would never encourage people to vote for any party on a single issue. Unless a local election under extreme circumstances. It's pointless and plays into the hands of those wanting to win on a (divisive and destructive) culture war.

LizzieSiddal · 20/10/2022 09:39

We’re between a rock and a hard place.

Choose the Tory’s and we get more astronomical harm done to women, children and the poor. NHS, education, SS etc will be further decimated with more austerity.

Choose Labour: services will improve, women and children will feel more supported in many areas, but will spend their lives hoping they don’t bump into some hairy beaded, “women” in what used to be single sex spaces.

I’m holding out for the Cass Review but it’s infuriating that we will have to keep on working to protect women and children, when this should be the first priority for Government.

Signalbox · 20/10/2022 09:45

5mins has a right to her opinion and to share it here. But it shouldn’t be a much of a surprise, that telling women, who are discussing bad policy, that they are harming a cause, is going to get their backs up.

@5mins I wouldn’t worry too much. Have you seen the news. Tories are in free-fall atm. Chances of them winning the next GE are minuscule even if every woman on Mumsnet voted Tory at the next election.

WearyLady · 20/10/2022 09:57

@fivemins
You're not a particular fan of labour and you definitely don't want the Tories to win votes on this issue: who do you suggest we vote for?

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 09:57

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 09:00

Jesus wept. Women have tried, for years and years, to talk to the left about this issue. We have just been dismissed as bigot terfs, had our names put on lists and in some cases been hounded out of political parties we've been members of for years!

Yep.

the main reason there is more critique of Labour on this board than there is of the Tories is because many of us used to be members, activists & officers for the left leaning parties.

Obvs as a pure numbers game that means we are mostly Labour, but there are women here who have been personally fucked over WEP, the LibDems, & the Greens.

So clearly we have more knowledge about the inside workings of these parties and thus more to discuss when it comes to the nitty gritty of how things work on the ground.

That doesn’t necessarily mean we think the Tories are a better option, I doubt I would ever personally vote Tory (unless I ended up in the constituency of one of the handful of Tory Women MPs that really understands this issue, eg Miriam Cates) and that would be to send a message to higher ups (no doubt terfy women who aren’t usually Labour supporters would consider Rosie Duffield on a similar basis).

As it is I continue to help out the Labour women cllrs locally who I know and trust on an adhoc basis, but I wouldn’t waste my time on the party generally anymore and I’ve held branch and ward positions and spent hours and hours on LE & GE campaigns.

The final straws for me was seeing a female Labour activist of 40 years being harassed by studenty members and subsequently sidelined and ostracised by the same men who had relied on her voluntary labour (small l) for decades.

Followed up by MN posters who claim to be on the left finger wagging at those of us wanting to have in depth discussions about the issues without being told who we could and couldn’t speak to and what topics we had to toe the line on.

Seeing the TRA tactics come out of people, sometimes other women, who are supposed to be on our side was a horrific revelation.

I want free debate with proper grown ups who are willing to state their position and defend it (and admit when their wrong or when their argument is not quite fully formed).

I’ve always been inclined towards anti authoritarianism, I’m a Gen X, Daughter of Grunge, a Riot Grrl who is long past the Grrl phase of life. I’m horrified at how conformist the nonconformist alternative scene has become.

The Punk subreddit is absolutely full of little blue haired woke-os pronoun policing the shit out everyone, claiming to be ‘progressive’ and ‘on the left’ yet female musicians are still sexualised and mocked in equal measure and young female fans are still getting cocks pressed up against them in the mosh pit.
Only now the cock might be in a frock and if she objects she’ll be ostracised as a terf.

And for some unfathomable reason Sir Starmer, former head of the CPS would rather listen to these destructive little uber-authoritarian-university-twits-who-identify-as-leftist than female party activists of multiple decades standing, many of whom work, or who used to work, in the public services that Labour are supposed to care about. Teachers, HCPs, Social Workers, community librarians, care home assistants, prison officers etc.

Labour have shat on all of us, so it’s a bit rich to tell us to sit still and shut up and shat on some more just so we can be shat on by a Labour Government rather than just a Labour Party (and all the trade unions).

We have to try and work with whoever is actually in a position of power, and that means the civil service, the judiciary and the regulating bodies of our health, education and legal professionals, because the Tories are obviously shitting up the country and Labour will inevitably shit it up in a load of different ways, while probably not doing much to unshit the bits the Tories have already broken.

(I’m not actually convinced Labour can win a majority without Scotland anyway. Far more likely we’ll end up with a useless runt of a Labour minority government or another ill-fated coalition. The public has election fatigue and the Labour Party is on it’s arse financially and can’t really afford another GE without a massive injection of crony cash, which is the sort of thing most Labour voters want OUT of our politics)

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 09:58

suggesting that people vote Tory

So suggesting that people vote Tory to prevent sex self ID and the removal of womens basic rights, is apparently hurting the ‘cause’ to get Labour to ditch this policy? How and why? Labour won’t ditch it if women that used to vote for them vote Tory?

So if all of the women in the country voted Tory because of this one womens rights issue, that would ‘hurt the cause’ to get Labour to ditch the policy?

Signalbox · 20/10/2022 10:02

FiveMins · 20/10/2022 09:34

I would never encourage people to vote for any party on a single issue. Unless a local election under extreme circumstances. It's pointless and plays into the hands of those wanting to win on a (divisive and destructive) culture war.

Why do you assume we are concerned about a single issue? I am worried about multiple issues.

Women’s right’s and safety.
Self ID.
Changes to the Equality Act.
Safeguarding.
Erosion of Free Speech.
Erosion of Academic Freedom.
Keeping children from medical harm
Preventing children from being indoctrinated in schools.
Hate crime laws.
Over reach by state into family life.
General shift to a more authoritarian society.

I am not even proposing people vote tory. I won’t be voting tory. But I certainly won’t be voting Labour either. They don’t look like a great prospect for women to me.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 10:03

It's the Tories that introduced the policy. And they didn't ditch it. The Tory party damages women.

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 10:05

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 10:03

It's the Tories that introduced the policy. And they didn't ditch it. The Tory party damages women.

When you say ‘the policy’, which particular policy are you referring to?

FunnyTalks · 20/10/2022 10:10

Excellent post cloglady

I'm an aged millennial and feel very similar.

I won't criticise a woman for how she feels she should vote or for not voting at all.

I've spent the morning reading about how a woman was denied life saving care due to not believing in gender ideology. I watched a loved one dying, very slowly, in and out of hospital. Illness and hospitalisation is dehumanising enough, before the people in power gaslight and assert their misogynist belief system on you, all for the crime of being traumatised by male violence. Labour are cool with this.

How the hell can I choose between abusive punishment of a vulnerable class (women) vs economic punishment of a vulnerable class (poor people)?

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 10:11

And anyone who used the lie "At least the Tories know what a woman is", was repeating a piece of Tory spin, dreamt up by HQ and put out by shills.

It was not women who know their own minds, it was suckers who fell for lies and soundbites.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 10:17

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 08:08

I am actually really annoyed by this thread. Some of us have spent several years arguing that by continually slagging off the left this issue will become part of the culture war.

Have you? Where? Not on here I don't think.

Sadly I've seen over the years on here that we have been infiltrated by some (who I think work for the Tories) who want to use it as a way to make people vote for the Tories.

Irony klaxon!

Yeah we're just silly little women who do what other people tell us 🙄

I agree what an idiotic post.

I’m glad others here post what they think, I’ve learnt a lot from FWR posters. Keep going

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 10:17

@TooBigForMyBoots what policy are you talking about? Sex self ID is not a Tory policy nor is it currently the law. Labour seeks to make it so

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 10:31

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 10:11

And anyone who used the lie "At least the Tories know what a woman is", was repeating a piece of Tory spin, dreamt up by HQ and put out by shills.

It was not women who know their own minds, it was suckers who fell for lies and soundbites.

Really? Got any evidence for that claim?

I'm not someone who has ever used that phrase,but how dare you insult the women on here like that! This particular MN board has some of the most intelligent, measured posters on it. Have you got anything except sneering to share with us?

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 10:33

Anyone who trots out the old "You've been led by the nose by the Tories/Russians/Far Right" line is showing how stupid THEY are and how little thinking and reading THEY have done.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 10:36

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 10:31

Really? Got any evidence for that claim?

I'm not someone who has ever used that phrase,but how dare you insult the women on here like that! This particular MN board has some of the most intelligent, measured posters on it. Have you got anything except sneering to share with us?

True the blind arrogance is off the scale.

Tg the majority are knowledgeable and speak freely.