Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

Suzanne Moore has waded in:

suzannemoore.substack.com/p/feminists-fight-whats-new-the-stupefied

I like Suzanne and am a subscriber to her substack, but that's quite a muddled article.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1eUXHb8qM5U

adding this video to this thread - it’s very important (and no, I don’t care that it was made by a man).

Yes, the other thread ended, when Sappho said it was about a man telling Brighton women how to do feminism". It isn't. It's a forensic analysis of who was filming there.

The 'forensic analysis' just proves what everyone already knew. The SFW event was being filmed by far right fascists who are an enemy of women.

Whether or not they were invited is irrelevant (although the forensic analysis shows PP chatting to them and she hasn't denied they were invited).

Hearts of Oak still filmed women speaking without their consent and uploaded those videos to a far right website that celebrates Tommy Robinson.

I really don't think it's surprising that some feminists have an opinion on this.

It’s not surprising but it is really disappointing and pushing more and more women away from the left.

purity spirals are an awful phenomenon and witnessing one in real time makes it increasingly obvious that the British left has been destroyed by identity politics and is now just a hollowed out husk of finger pointers.

Yes but women cannot control the crowd that turns up, and the only way to avoid this new and fun way of men exploiting women for their own purposes is for women to not speak in public and protest the loss of their rights.

So I'm afraid I'm for the speaking and protesting as the bigger issue than purity issues of 'people with smelly views were seen near you so your voice is invalidated due to these weird rules we on the left have just made up'.

I really don't think it's surprising that some feminists have an opinion on this.

I think it's entirely unsurprising that some (all?) feminists don't like those people.

I think it's very surprising that some feminists are centring them rather than women, and are willing to entirely abandon the idea of women holding public rallies on the basis that they might turn up.

The message I'm increasingly taking here is that there are, generally speaking, now two groups of male people who wish to make non consenting use of females for their own agendas.

But what really matters is not the behaviour towards females, but how those males vote.

I am beyond tired of this.

Excellent point.

I also think it is fine to denounce both sets of men rather than just one.

The 'forensic analysis' just proves what everyone already knew. The SFW event was being filmed by far right fascists who are an enemy of women.

No it doesn't. Explain what qualifies these particular right wingers as "fascists"?

And no one was denying these people were there, just the influence they were given. It was mostly a woman filming who looked like many women there.

Anyone can chat to KJK, she's very approachable. You could have done yourself.

I also think it is fine to denounce both sets of men rather than just one.

But you're not just doing that, you're extending it to KJK and women who support her. No one cares whether this random ragtag bunch of right wingers are criticised. It isn't about them.

Meanwhile, the actions of the masked men with smoke bombs and knuckle dusters who came to intimidate and bully women are deflected and ignored.

Yep. The only people who were doing nothing wrong, centring women, publicising the attack on women's rights and listening to women's experiences were Posie and her followers.

The fact that one of those rumoured ‘two men’ filming was actually a women and not a man makes this even more complicated. So, are we now going to go around and ask the affiliation of every woman who had their camera out now too?

It was also a great analysis that showed how easy it was to get into that ‘inner circle’ that people used to imply ‘welcoming’. I have said on at least 3 threads now, anyone can just walk up and set up and Alf’s video showed just that.

So, effectively, we are back to ‘denouncing’ since we now cannot ‘prevent’ people who are not actually aligned from filming.

Great. So, Sappho has your group issued a run sheet on how these events now should work? A suggested list of denouncements and what time and how often will be enough?

Can we have that in time for the ForWomenScotland event please?

Or can we all go back to common sense and believe that Kellie Jay Keen and any other organizer of these women’s events are not ‘aligned’ with those groups and that at public events they cannot restrict who records in anyway the event.

Looking forward to the official feminist run sheet of denouncment for acceptance so we can at least know what hoops organisers need to do in addition to: notify and work with Police/councils to hold events, get female security wardens in place, not bad down from 100s of screaming protestors who are warning over social media they are going to shut up women whatever it takes, and the list goes on.

Anyone can chat to KJK, she's very approachable. You could have done yourself.

As has been suggested on numerous threads now already.

Can organisers be issued with the exact acceptable words of denouncement, by the way?

Because just how much more time and effort will be lost after another event where the women speaking should have been centred because the organisers and women speaking didn’t say the acceptable denouncements.

And if this suggestion is considered ridiculous, should I continue to train the pig?

Why does anyone have to denounce a person for filming them?

It's madness.

For one thing, it neatly ensures the denouncer will be forever referred to as: 'the feminist who was forced to denounce links to the far right'.

For another, being filmed is not something anyone has control over so how on earth is it logical that they have to distance themselves from it, any more than they'd have any responsibility for the views if any random person walking past in the street?

I for one repent of my sins and renounce the devil and all false prophets!

I agree Arabella. This is all bonkers now.

I think the pig needs feeding and I have to collect fascists so the pig can work out what they smell like.

What's the alternative?

Women and feminists sit down, shut up and go along with something that makes them deeply uncomfortable?

Well, as I said, if I have ever walked past anyone with views I disagree with, I hereby denounce them. I'm sure all right thinking women will join me in doing so.

What's the alternative?

Women and feminists sit down, shut up and go along with something that makes them deeply uncomfortable?

The alternative is to stop banging on about it and trying to force struggle session denunciations, and move on.

What is the 'something' they are going along with, Sappho?

Well, yes, that's clearly the only safe way. And of course, never go out, never stand anywhere near anyone else in case they have views our overlords don't approve of and you become mystically aligned to them by physical proximity. And of course you should never talk to anyone before they've answered a short 50-question survey on their politics and beliefs and have passed the virtue test, otherwise you could be accused of fraternising with the enemy. Kafka missed a trick on this one, didn't he?

This is why people hate the Labour and the 'progressive' left. There's another thread currently

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4645590-to-ask-what-people-have-against-labour?page=13&reply=120431463

in which it's clear a lot of people are sick of Labour's 'I am good and virtuous and occupy the moral high ground and if you don't agree with me you're Tory scum' position. It's a way of preventing free speech.