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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men of the far right and the women's movement

463 replies

SapphosRock · 28/09/2022 16:12

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 17:17

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2022 17:12

For all of us 'Unreal Feminists', I'm making a pizza, who wants what?

Truffles???? I have this in my mind right now...

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 17:18

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 17:16

Definitely doesn’t need any more vinegar!

Yes, apparently it is a myth that salt or vinegar sets dye. So I don't think that poster is making their own slogan tees.

FOJN · 29/09/2022 17:36

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

JFC I don't think you could fit a fag paper between a TRA and a real feminist™ at the moment.

Why are the real feminists™ so determined to start a fight? These disagreements have always been present in the movement to oppose gender ideology but when I first starting reading MN the women here were careful not to pick sides and posted about how important different approaches and contributions were. This recent episode is different in that the accusations are unfair, I don't think most posters have put KJK on a pedestal but, speaking for myself, I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

MrsMidClegs · 29/09/2022 17:53

@ArabellaScott "What you're saying is you need is a 'Real Feminist' T-shirt."

They have their very own Facebook page! Called "Gender Critical Leftist Feminist"group which is moderated by a man. Some women have protested about this and they're kicked off because "it's not that sort of feminist group".

Aka this left wing feminist space is run by men.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 18:00

This recent episode is different in that the accusations are unfair, I don't think most posters have put KJK on a pedestal but, speaking for myself, I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

yep.

It has been said time and time again on these current threads.

But anyone saying, this situation is fucked up and there are some people who are stirring it up and some people are outright fucked up bullies, are then declared to be 'Posie worshippers' or 'won't hear a word against Posie'.

No. We are saying some people are just straight out bullies and they can still be doing wonderful things for women, but be fucked up and straight out bullies at the same time.

Hepwo · 29/09/2022 18:08

Hepwo · 29/09/2022 10:07

Re whoever said I have a rage about Posie etc ..she annoys me as she has obviously undone any good work that real feminists have done with her shenanighans

We are all ears. Do tell us what has come undone?

No points for any references to pathetic Twitter TRAs bleating about fash.

I'm quoting my own question here for saltyandvinegery.

What has work has been undone?

You said it is obvious but seem to be struggling to tell us.

beastlyslumber · 29/09/2022 18:12

Aww @Moresaltnvinegarplease Posie lives rent free in your head, doesn't she? Sad times.

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 18:19

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yep.

I still think there is plenty of room for all sorts of feminists, academic, grassroots, professional, newly conscious et al.

But personally I’ve had enough of the bullying ‘lefty’, purity spiral ones.

I’m off the fence and as I was pushed off it, the laws of physics have landed me onto the femalist side (even if I’m not sure how to spell that).

In the never ending word association game inside my own head I’ve been put in mind of the classic Australian tv drama, Prisoner Cell Block H.

I’m sick of being told what to do by The Real Feminist Guards.

Men of the far right and the women's movement
Beautifulvue · 29/09/2022 18:22

Yes thank you Justine for letting reasonable discussion happen here. I have become a premium member because of this

beastlyslumber · 29/09/2022 18:32

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yep. I'm now responding to all emails from Real Feminist groups with a message explaining how disappointed I am in their treatment of PP and the brave women who spoke at her event, and they should take me off their mailing list.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 18:53

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yes. I agree.

However, from what I can see, it isn't and 'our own' team. It is very, very much an 'us and them' team with the added loveliness of 'them' being able to bully and slyly accuse with no recourse and to disown any that don't agree or join in the performance.

I mean, according to 'salty' no one here is a 'real' feminist anyway and no one on MN FWR are doing anything to progress woman and girls.

That's us told!

FOJN · 29/09/2022 19:25

However, from what I can see, it isn't and 'our own' team. It is very, very much an 'us and them' team with the added loveliness of 'them' being able to bully and slyly accuse with no recourse and to disown any that don't agree or join in the performance.

This is the sad truth isn't it. I thought we had a loose coalition of women with broadly similar aims, each group bringing something different to the table.

I don't even think it's a sincere demand for purity, the HoO chap filming at the Brighton event is just a convenient excuse to put the boot into the woman who main strength is raising awareness.

I'm deeply cynical about the motives of the women doing it, why would you cause such a fracture in a movement when we've been making so much progress?

turbonerd · 29/09/2022 19:25

*But once you have identified the sinners within the crowd polluting Real Feminism Like What Good Feminists Do without bothering and upsetting males, what exactly will happen next?

Are we talking close formation tutting?

Is Posie going to Glare at them?

A pen of some kind?

Removing them from the Christmas card list?

Defriending them on Fb?
Stakes and firewood?*
@ImherewithBoudica

What happens next is a good question. Firstly, the motherfuckers should repent. A tambourine would see to that.

Oh gods, one does Wonder what their Endgame is. What do the Real Feminists really expect of people? Whenever I speak to students about this (feminism) most of them, both women and men, are dismissive and want to make sure the others know they are NOT Feminists or man haters. It is the first thing that happens. But when we talk about the real life aims and don’t call them feminism, most if not all agree totally. It’s just common sense. It is fair and offers opportunities to all.

so The Real Feminists have a real problem with image. And with History it seems. And Herstory too, to be pernickety. Throughout time women have had to put their political differences to the side to make real changes.

You in the UK (or USA) never had much of this beyond the Battle for legal abortion; but in other European countries and certainly in Scandinavia policies regarding maternity pay, Parental pay, access to education and the general workforce were created by women regardless of political affiliation. This was in the 1970s and 1980s. Crucial to this was the creation of readily available and heavily subsidised childcare for children from age 9/12 months until school age 6/7 years. This allowed all women the possibility to join the workforce. In addition, my country had extended parental pay for those who wished to stay at home with their child until their 3rd birthday. After that you could choose nursery (at £2-300 a month for full time cover) or of course you could stay at home if finances allowed.
A generous paternity pay for 3/6 months also came from the late 90-s if I recall correctly.

It is concerning that there is such a divide between The Real Feminists and The Others. «We who have not read Dworkin because we could not be arsed.» and others Others too, of course.
To be honest, I read Beavoir and then about her situation with Sartre, and then about the sexual revolution; and none of that appeals to me.

I was not welcome with the Real Feminists as a student because I pointed out that a women’s experience of pregnancy and birth, and a fair chunk of time after, is vastly different from a man’s. And crucial to the survival of the human race and should perhaps be valued thereafter? Intellect, interests, hobbies and general parking abilities are not sex related, but which role you have in procreation IS. (Difference in physical strength too. I am 4,10. Any teenage boy or man my size could send me flying without much effort).

This is the basis for my firm belief in the facts of material reality. This and the knowledge that throughout all of western History at least, women have mostly had few rights or roles beyond what their biology have afforded them. The right to education, to the money they earned, to property, to their children has not been a given.

ok. Epic rant over.

turbonerd · 29/09/2022 19:28

Also Helle, my nose would not fall off. I is a sturdy kind of zombie!

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 19:28

Bloody good to know Turbs. Good to have that sorted!

terryleather · 29/09/2022 19:31

As so many pps have already demonstrated, it’s easy enough to see what is really going on here. In many ways this has jack shit to do with KJK.

The majority of the attacks on KJK are performative, done for the benefit of the leftist “in” group, done to show that the GC leftist feminist “out” group are not after all, "the baddies". It's oh so very important that they keep themselves away from any further contamination and to be very visibly seen to be doing it, so Denounce! Denounce! Denounce! is the order of the day.

Denouncing KJK shows that despite their filthy terfery they’re still the “goodies” and helps to distance themselves as far as possible from that terfery - by gawd they may have sinned by knowing what a woman is but they bloody well still know a fascist/ right winger/ nazi/ white supremacist/ capitalist pigdog when they see one so that means they’re still the goodies….doesn’t it?

I reckon they’re onto plums - once tainted no denouncing of others who are “worse” will lift that taint so it’s a useless time wasting and divisive exercise that benefit no one and is hugely tedious into the bargain.

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 29/09/2022 19:49

Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/09/2022 17:40

This is really getting on my nerves now.

Hearts of Oak were not there with Posie Parker. That is an indisputable fact and it is beyond ridiculous to try to argue the pure fantasy they were.

Hearts of Oak have links with a prominent transactivist. The comments when they posted their video included the T word and other anti-woman abuse. If they were with anyone (which they probably weren't) they were with the transactivists.

Do some women want to see women's rights movement destroyed because they're so pissed off and jealous that they aren't getting the headlines? Are they so willing to lie and feed the likes of spiteful Owen Jones rather than congratulate another woman?

Again, I'm not surprised that people who spend all their online time obsessing about trans people, don't know anything about trans people. The far right abhor LGBT ppl and trans people particularly - they see us as degenerates and have a history of being violent towards us..and sometimes murdering us. The language they use for us is like Ovarit on steroids.

They were there because KJK was fangirling a right-wing agitator and they see her and her supporters as useful.

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 19:50

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 29/09/2022 19:49

Again, I'm not surprised that people who spend all their online time obsessing about trans people, don't know anything about trans people. The far right abhor LGBT ppl and trans people particularly - they see us as degenerates and have a history of being violent towards us..and sometimes murdering us. The language they use for us is like Ovarit on steroids.

They were there because KJK was fangirling a right-wing agitator and they see her and her supporters as useful.

Receipts please!

otherwise, we discussed this two threads and 40 pages ago.

ImherewithBoudica · 29/09/2022 20:19

And kittens superlative microwave parrots and wideaisle hoodie nebulisers, which zebras west space-time-continuum fascist duck bricks.

BitossiBlues · 29/09/2022 20:40

May I suggest that the non verbal, fascist-sniffing pig be partnered with a leftist, tru-feminist spider, who upon being given the signal by said pig, can then weave the words "SOME FASCIST" in a web across their filthy, fascist face.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/09/2022 20:40

The language they use for us is like Ovarit on steroids.

Yes, I'm sure they're often found to be quoting from Sheila Jeffreys or Julia Long.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/09/2022 20:50

Denouncing KJK shows that despite their filthy terfery they’re still the “goodies” and helps to distance themselves as far as possible from that terfery - by gawd they may have sinned by knowing what a woman is but they bloody well still know a fascist/ right winger/ nazi/ white supremacist/ capitalist pigdog when they see one so that means they’re still the goodies….doesn’t it?

I reckon they’re onto plums - once tainted no denouncing of others who are “worse” will lift that taint so it’s a useless time wasting and divisive exercise that benefit no one and is hugely tedious into the bargain.

This. What's not being acknowledged here is that TRAs think exactly the same about Bindel etc. IME they don't really grasp the factions thing, we're all violently erasing their existence.

JCJ is, KJK is. Sappho and her radfem friends are. Any women fighting for women's spaces, as for eg in Brighton itself there is Sarah bringing the case against the "inclusive" rape counselling service, are.

Simply for not accepting gender identity ideology as true, and saying no to them. There are no good GC feminists on the side of right for these people.

MangyInseam · 29/09/2022 22:10

beastlyslumber · 29/09/2022 09:36

Look. If fascists want to hear and share what ordinary women are saying about the impact of gender ideology on their and their kids' lives, then surely that's a good thing?

If fascists are spreading the message, "don't mutilate kids," then what's the problem?

Let them livestream it. I hope ALL the 29 paid up fascists in the UK saw it.

This is what I keep coming back to.

Why would this be a bad thing?

It wouldn't, materially.

It's like there is a fear of ritual contamination.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 30/09/2022 10:09

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 29/09/2022 19:49

Again, I'm not surprised that people who spend all their online time obsessing about trans people, don't know anything about trans people. The far right abhor LGBT ppl and trans people particularly - they see us as degenerates and have a history of being violent towards us..and sometimes murdering us. The language they use for us is like Ovarit on steroids.

They were there because KJK was fangirling a right-wing agitator and they see her and her supporters as useful.

1 - I'm not interested in you, I'm interested in myself.

2 - it is an incontrovertible fact that the only demonstrable HoO link is with a prominent transactivist so 0 points for the attempt at fingerpointing like a toddler with chocolate smeared around their mouth.

3 - it fortunately doesn't appear that any transperson in the UK has ever been murdered by a 'fascist' (see above for alliances). I don't approve of histrionic hyperbole.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2022 12:54

Again, I'm not surprised that people who spend all their online time obsessing about trans people, don't know anything about trans people.

Well, we also tend to take into account the very helpful posts from you in how much we 'know' about trans people and their attitudes to the rights of women and children. That is the topic of this board.

I don't recall seeing much except admonishment in your own posts on this board. So, what do you think we should take away from that? Particularly about how people supposedly don't 'know' about trans people, when many posters on this board have loved ones who are 'trans'. Maybe they are the wrong type of 'trans' people in your eyes.

The far right abhor LGBT ppl and trans people particularly - they see us as degenerates and have a history of being violent towards us..and sometimes murdering us.

So, you know every single affiliation of every single trans person out there. Well, if I was to be facetious, maybe just those on twitter if your user name should be considered.

You cannot prove that there is no connection between a trans activist and the Hearts of Oak people. If you can, bring it onto the thread.

Otherwise, it is just more distraction.

The language they use for us is like Ovarit on steroids.

So what? If some of a group use language that you disapprove of, does that mean that no trans activist can have a connection to that group.

It all seems rather an empty logic.

They were there because KJK was fangirling a right-wing agitator and they see her and her supporters as useful.

And can you post the evidence of this claim too please.

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