Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

Well, in order to achieve change one has to make broad coalitions, and that will always include people who have very, very different world views. Obviously it is important to remain in the driver‘s seat. Also, one shouldn’t get side-tracked because ‚the wrong people‘ express sympathies.

As a politics geek I read through Putin‘s whole annexation-speech and almost spit my coffee when, I shit you not, he started to bemoan sex reassignment procedures for children and the idea of many genders (In a speech held in the context of the annexation of Ukrainian oblasts!). He also threw in some anti-colonial rhetoric for good measure. Who knows why he did it and feminist he is clearly not.

Anyway, I can already see how people will eviscerate gender-critical and anti-medical-child-transition (and anti-colonialism?) positions as ,siding with Putin‘. It is all very silly.

The activism tactics of PP and SFW.

It's understandable that local feminists will have an opinion and voice that opinion when it is activism that affects women in Brighton.

If they were forced to agree with PP and / or punished for not agreeing with PP that would be fascism.

Can these threads get any more bonkers?

who is dictating ‘forced agreement’?

Who are the ones with a page where sins are listed and are misrepresented?

I think (and many feminists have pointed out) there is a huge different between allegiances with the Tory party and the far right.

The far right are actual enemies of women. As much so as the far left TRAs.

What tactics? I'm not being obtuse, I really want to know what it is she's done that is wrong.

What tactics? Allowing members of the public to film her?

Sorry for double post, thought my phone ate the first one.

Women and feminists sit down, shut up and go along with something that makes them deeply uncomfortable?

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Anyone - including fascists, TRAs, and feminists - can film anyone - including fascists, TRAs and feminists - a public space.

If that makes someone uncomfortable, be they fascist, TRA or feminist, then that person should not perform in a public space.

There absolutely should be non-public events, and even totally unfilmed events, for women who are uncomfortable with the level of exposure they would get at a KJK rally. The best thing you can do for people who are uncomfortable is to create new spaces where they would be comfortable.

We can't make the public square such a "safe space" though. (And by "can't", I mean we couldn't even if we wanted to).

If they were forced to agree with PP and / or punished for not agreeing with PP that would be fascism.

well, no, that would be authoritarianism but not actual fascism.

luckily no one is forcing anyone to agree with Posie (although surely we DO all agree that men can’t be women and transing kids is bad and women need single sex services?)

what we are saying is that trying to smear everyone who works with Posie or who likes Posie or who has spoken at a Posie event as a fascist is a) stupid b)bullying and c)making the last bit of the left that we thought was sensible look just as unhinged as the TRAs.

PP has been very open that she doesn't care about politics or if the far right are publicising SFW for their own agenda.

I think it's understandable for feminists to disagree with this as a tactic.

So say that.

’We won’t be attending the event as we do not agree with Posie’s position on open access events’

Job done. No bullying, no smearing, no making left wing feminists look indistinguishable from TRAd

Why is it the wrong tactic to fight for what you believe is right, no matter who may share your views?
It sure is a more effective tactic than battling everyone who doesn‘t subscribe to your general world-view but supports this one common issue.
Or is effectiveness not the goal?

That's exactly what they did.

brightonsisters.wordpress.com/bwlc-statement-on-democratic-dialogue/

well, no, that would be authoritarianism but not actual fascism.

Many people don't really understand what fascism is, and throw it around willy nilly as some sort of all purpose smear.

I think it's understandable for feminists to disagree with this as a tactic.

sure. I don’t think any of us have said that you can’t disagree on any of it.

What doesn’t seem to register is constant ‘just denounce’ order is actually completely unrealistic in law and in practicalities.

What doesn’t seem to register is the complete lack of suggestions as to how an organiser is to achieve the acceptable level of purity.

What doesn’t seem to register is that many people are very suspicious of the motives of any person who thinks that having a list of sins for a person within their movement that they disagree with? That a large proportion of those ‘sins’ are what has also been said by other ‘approved’ feminists as well.

So, yes. I am deeply, deeply suspicious that a group of feminists are setting up a person they disagree with on some aspects of what they say yet agree with, to fail forever.

And in doing so have become the totalitarians that they are accusing others of.

Denounce. Denounce.

Repent motherfucker, repent!!!

FFS don't go to her events then. You don't like her approach, I think you should act in accordance with your conscience. The "bad feminists" aren't going to round the real feminists™ up and force them to attend at gun point. Attendance is voluntary, you are not a victim.

You are the one trying to force other people to agree. The demands for KJK to "denounce' HoO are ridiculous. Are you planning to burn us if we don't recant?

You do you and leave others to do them.

Well, SapphosRock, having read your link and the link in there that leads to Posie‘s or her guests’ positions, I can savely say: You are not in it to win it.

And I recommend all readers of this thread to read this page that is also linked to the page Sappho has posted.

brightonsisters.wordpress.com/differences-of-opinion-between-bwlc-and-kellie-jay-keen/

I think regular readers across a wide range of feminist board topics will be able to make their own decisions as to the motivations of whoever created that page.

she doesn't care about politics or if the far right are publicising SFW for their own agenda.

Presumably there's no issue with someone not caring about politics? So the problem is someone else publicising her? How on earth is she supposed to control another person's choice to film her?

I've repented and denounced but I want to stress nobody should quote me on this without my express approval.

And around we go.

The Questions that have not been answered yet by any person who are telling us that KJK is the wrong sort of person come up every few pages and not once across all these threads has any person answered.

Here’s one I prepared earlier.

What is the difference between a man and a woman who is live streaming from their phones and someone just ‘sharing’ the Standing For Women feed?

I would like an answer to this.

What is the difference?

This absolutely is is not:

No bullying, no smearing, no making left wing feminists look indistinguishable from TRAs

it’s the opposite.

We are in upside down world 🙃

oops. I quoted you Arabella.

I now need to repent further and denounce myself.

or something.

But sincerest apologies. I will submit to re-education at your request.

Does it help that I am knocking on doors today with my Fascist Hunter Pig to find Fascists to train said pig for events?

I agree .

The purity spiral is a massive distraction and anyone who truly cares about single sex spaces and not transing kids would recognise that.