Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

I'm getting real vibes about all this. Like, I saw Goodie Keen dancing with the Devil. She did come to him by the light of the moon and dance, and laugh and suckle at his teet. Goodie Keen did curse the village well, causing the water to go bad and not satisfied, did cause a blight on the crops so that many did go hungry and perish.

Some people really don't like KJK and seem to think that whatever it is about her that is Bad will rub off on them because they share one belief. Pointing fingers at her in the hope that the extreme left will focus on KJK and leave them alone.

Let’s hope she doesn’t get radicalised into Fascism any time soon or all of youse lot will have to loudly and repeatedly denounce me for my crypto-fascism.

She's outed herself as "not left wing" <gasps> on Twitter this week, she did not seem ashamed <reaches for smelling salts> at all. She'll be first on the bus to the gulags.
I hope I get the seat next to her.

In other news there is a right wing (far right IMO) currently live streaming the ER protest. ER are fascists now! I'm sure Sappho will be on the case demanding a denouncement ASAP.

Purity spirals must be so exhausting.

I still can‘t see why posting that video on a far right website is beyond the pale. What‘s bad about letting the far right hear about women‘s and feminists‘ positions?
The fact of the matter is that there is broad resistance against transing kids and doing away with sex segregated spaces - among the far right, among migrant groups, conservatives, women left, right and center, working class, apolitical folks across the country….
One would have to keep all these groups utterly divided to prevent them from coalescing around this and pushing this overwhelmingly popular issue of child protection and preserving sex segregated spaces through.
But yeah, with purity politics you can obviously snatch defeat from the jaws of victory even on that issue…

Having read your input on the CMK thread and having seen that disgusting page on KJK you have on your website, I find this vanishingly unlikely!

Do the others know? 😂

Yes, I saw that!

Just to be clear, Sapphos would welcome women from Hearts of Oak to her hypothetical event?

I don't want to interact with sapphos but it seems to me that you can take the person out of a mindless ideology but you can't always take the mindlessness out of a person. I admire the patience of those dealing with the bad faith arguments and utterly rigid and judgmental attitude of this person but life is too short.

How many days have we got before the For Women Scotland rally to get the denouncement script approved?

And will Filia and LGB Alliance be able to use it too?

Is there a ticker tape message or watermarked message that can be added during livestreams to ensure that all videos and livestreams have the appropriate denouncements on them?

Because I have noticed again the question Has been ignored about what is the difference between a person who should be denounced live streaming from a public access event vs a person who should be denounced as sharing any livestream via social media.

This whole thing is very empty of anything except virtue signaling at this point. All these people making public denouncements of not aligning to the ‘x’ group/party/person, saying others should too. And never once offering a useful suggestion how it can be done at public rallies.

When even LGB Alliance had Ives present and streaming and posting videos. At a conference no less.

(where are the official denouncements? Where are the Brighton feminists sinner page for LGB Alliance?)

And Filia last year should have been able to use the magic process that everyone seems to think is possible to get those protestors to STFU when the women were reading out the names of murdered women too.

I mean, isn’t that what we are being told? That there is a some
magic that ‘bad’ people can be evicted from a public area so they are not considered associating with others?

We covered tutting loudly. We covered a Fascist Hunter pig. We’ve asked for the denouncement script.

Yet, we have no suggestions from ‘the righteous side’.

Feels exactly like a virtual signaling exercise to me.

Well, I appreciate that Sappho and others are standing up for their principles. I respect that. I try to do the same. (For what it's worth, Sappho, I'm holding others in mind when discussing these issues, and that may not be fair to you).

My principles mean that I could not denounce someone I had not actually supported. It's not just that it would be a daft move politically - if I denounce Stalin I'll forevermore be 'Arabella Scott, who was forced to deny her support for Stalin' - it's also just not acting with integrity to denounce someone you've not supported.

I hope that makes sense.

The only way that anyone can not 'allow' anyone else to film them and broadcast it to wherever they please is by never, ever speaking in public. Closed meetings only. And only an audience of pre-approved guests.

As far as I can work out, this is suggesting that we can only talk to people who agree with us, who share the same political ideals. We should never discuss anything with anyone outside our echo chamber or bubble, never allow our words or thoughts to be sullied by an undesirable audience.

The only way that anyone can not 'allow' anyone else to film them and broadcast it to wherever they please is by never, ever speaking in public. Closed meetings only. And only an audience of pre-approved guests.

Yes.

This get's pointed out every thread and is promptly ignored or noises made but no actual acknowledgement that this means shutting down these events.

The reason is clear, though.

If anyone acknowledged that the demands actually meant that these events would have to stop because there is no way to meet these demands, then the 'pure' feminists would look bad in other's eyes. Because these events DO work and frankly those 'closed door' meetings are not working for this purpose at all.

So, if it had to be acknowledged that to meet the demands the events would cease, the backlash on those 'pure' feminists would make them the baddies.

Therefore, they will continue with the continued insistence that it 'can' be done.

All it needs is an denunciation.

All it needs is the someone works out a way to prevent anyone ever again sharing anything on social media who is 'not approved'.

All it needs is for one person to say they are 'not aligned'.

All it needs is for the wrong people to be excluded from a public place.

All it needs is for someone to question every single person in attendance to monitor their intentions and their alignment.

All it needs....

But really, it has become virtue signalling. And it has become tribal. And it has been driven by a particular group who don't seem to have any particular self awareness despite demanding it of others.

So, yes. The ridiculous superficial 'just [insert action] and it will be ok' or 'we certainly don't want ANY action to be able to tie us to x people will continue, because those people cannot ever acknowledge the end result of their demands otherwise it would indeed highlight that they have become what they accuse other groups.

Exactly. What the demands really mean is, "someone make Posie stop being so effective." Or maybe more directly, "shut that b*tch up."

I expect her standing against Izzard for election will have got their backs up, too. Because frankly, she is a tactical genius. And they are still having their closed-door meetings, wondering why they can't get Owen Jones on side.

Oh yes. I'm not sure she would win, but dear lord, the fall out of her even attempting would be awesome.

The interviews! The press coverage!

It is indeed genius.

Now seems a good time to post this link.

kathleenstock.substack.com/p/on-guilt-by-association?sd=pf

Oh yes. I'm not sure she would win, but dear lord, the fall out of her even attempting would be awesome.

I think it's highly unlikely she would win but going up against EI is a genius move and as you said the fall out would be delicious.

Winning is entirely unnecessary.

Following Izzard around the campaign trail and political TV show circuit will make the wheels come off the TRA bus.

i am so here for it.

Yep, she doesn't need to win. But she will be able to make so much hay on the campaign trail. She will be taking on Izzard directly and it's going to be immense. I am very much here for it!

I saw a meme someone did on twitter with a pic of Izzard going into the ladies with the words "not keen?" and a pic of KJK on the other side: "vote Keen!" Hhahaha let's hope the Real Feminists get on board by then. Although Izzard is standing for Labour so I guess it's unlikely.

Where have you seen this, @TalaTheStoryteller? Post links please!

The RFs are definitely aiming to make KJK look like some kind of fascists. But I think they are making themselves so irrelevant, it won't matter what they say. They haven't caught up yet but calling people fascists is much like calling them transphones. It just doesn't hit like it used to.

Tala, you have it upside down. You and other self- proclaimed ‚real‘ feminists try to shut women up who speak up and fight for women‘s rights.
And why? Because you center some males in the audience and make it all about them, while making their presence the women‘s responsibility.
Whatever you guys are fighting for, women‘s rights it is not.

beastly don‘t overthink it, this is just trolling at this point.
They‘re just miffed that their attempt to isolate KJK has failed on this board, so they declare us all fascists or fascist enablers and their life is back in balance.

I am not sure anyone should take notes on influencing people from the RF. Even before all this gender stuff blew up, polls of regular women never seem to come up with more than 10% identifying as feminists of any kind.

They don't seem to know convince women that feminism is something they want at the best of times.

Always ask to see the evidence. I know they can't produce it and it's just lies, but it shows them up.

beastly I see your point. It was just such a detached, lazy comment. They could as well have thrown in our fear of lizard people for good measure. But, yeah, I guess, always asking for evidence, no matter how absurd the allegation is the way to go.

Oooh, cutted-up pear moment. We're such bad mummies.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/1301196-If-my-3yo-had-access-to-AIBU