Owen Jones's video

[SecretTransTwitterEngineer]

Owen Jones posted a response to a person on Twitter who had suggested that he needed to have engaged in a relationship with a trans man to be supportive of trans issues, but turned into a commentary about anti-trans activism generally.

Video

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

I can't see the Owen Jones video because he's blocked me on twitter.

I think the OP is saying that some heterosexual people are upset that the world doesn't think they are gay and that it is homophobic to assume a heterosexual relationship is heterosexual.

And, how do you know all these people are 'mostly straight'. Did you ask them? You didn't, do you? Tut.

On top of that, I suspect a lot of those who would call themselves "straight" would actually not be in OP's terms, what with them being attracted to people of any gender, as long as they're the right sex...

So they're as queer as fuck.

postmodernism was cool as an art movement but it’s utterly bullshit for daily communications.

Potato cheese Wednesday topple.

Anyone else notice it was not just the main paragraph but all of the OP that this poster couldn’t bring themselves to use the word ‘lesbian’?

Or quite possibly EDUCATE THEMSELVES

Right maybe if the OP isn’t coming back someone could help me with something

i got told the other day that gay meant homosexual male and that lesbians shouldn’t be using the term as they have their own term…lesbian

this person also said that pride was originally created and made for gay males and that everyone else hopped on board and now its not fair that lesbians have lesbian pride and transpeople have trans pride and gay males can’t have their own pride

im not even sure what my question is at this point….

This thread demonstrates what I experience in everyday life. When discussions about transmen and transwomen come up, people translate this in their heads (or aloud seeking confirmation) about which sex someone referred to is. It seems to be a fundamental / natural part of our sense making that when dealing with relationships and interactions we think about and consider people's sex.

With conversations that involve multiple references to transwomen and transmen and their interactions with women and men, the cognitive load can get too much for the listener or speaker to follow whilst also 'translating'.

In these situations, people often sheepishly, as they think this is frowned upon/ unkind/transphobic (different for different people), seek clarification about who are the males and the females- and then go back to the conversation.

The more TRAs seek colonise sex specific terms, the more confused the average person will become and will want to discuss someone's sex - which is not what TRAs want. If we had separate terms, I think people are less likely to want to discuss/clarify a persons sex - particularly when it isn't of much significance to the conversation/ situation.

It means there is a lot of entitlement going on between the groups which everyone is been dragged into, whether they want to or not.

If you consider that Australia's Mardi Gras parade has been going on for nearly 45 years & includes gays/lesbians/trans & just about every other flavour of sexuality & gender in one big event.

Good point appletree - it’s having the exact opposite effect to the one they intend because we end up focussing on who is male and female here, and how they would have been described a few years ago before all this bollocks. If they’d just made up new names for them we’d all be clear on it now and could have focussed on helping them find solutions to eg the toilets issue, rather than wasting everyone’s time and energy deciding who’s allowed to say what about whom.

So you're attracted to women? Because your sex is male and you're straight, although you identify as a woman? I don't understand?

saw a ‘jumble sausage’ advertised on Ubereats earlier this week.

put me in mind of trans ideology.

typo for ‘jumbo’, obvs!

It would be impossible be a useful this ideology only exists in the twisting of words that already meant something. Take the words (and symbols, which are just another language) away and try to draw these concepts by representing the reality they supposedly have, and the whole thing just falls apart.

Classic example of Emperors New Clothes, muddle the language so much no one actually questions statements like a straight TW.

I don’t care who some one is attracted too, as long as it’s consensual. I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t criticise anyone for their choice of sexual partner e.g. murderer, rapist etc. but I wouldn’t criticise based on sex.

What I do object to is being told a straight male person with a penis is a woman and therefore a lesbian. Using correct sex based definitions is vital, because it is an inconvenient fact for TRAs, particularly those who have the sexual proclivities we can’t mention.

Incidentally I had no problem understanding the OP. I understand that they use their words consistently even though they use them to mean something different.

I don't see why it's so important that the trans ideology reuses words that already had meanings to mean something new though.*

(* Actually I do. But only by stepping outside the ideology to observe its workings and power play. I can't see a coherent and justifiable argument within the ideology's own framework that gender, which is emphatically not sex, nevertheless should have exactly the same terminology and structures we created for sex.)

Damn autocorrect...

[An IKEA style diagram] would be impossible because this ideology only exists in the twisting of words that already meant something. Take away the words, try and actually draw what they are claiming is real, and it all falls apart.

Reminder of OJ's hypocrisy.

Will the op ever come back?

I'm waiting for the screenshots to appear on twitter.

In an effort to understand the OP, I've done a translation (my changes in italics).

As a trans-identified gay male in the UK who knows dozens of straight people of both sexes who identify as transgender, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that straight trans ppl are attempting to force lesbians and gay men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame lesbians and gay men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

So I think the OP is saying that it's homophobic to point out that a gay man who is attracted to both other men and women who identify as men is not gay, but bisexual. Perhaps the OP will come back at some point and clarify.

Wow that video.
On the face of it. It took me back to when I was a compliant little lib fem, around 2014-15.

Those poor marginalised trans women who have handed in their winning lottery ticket of being a male to become marginalised and suffer the same appalling misogyny. Because they hate toxic masculinity SO MUCH, hate their seed bodies SO MUCH, they want to align with women's values and stand with us to fight patriarchy. I was so moved by that idea, honestly, that it brought me to tears. They deserve our love and protection, they deserve all the solidarity.

I sought trans people out just so I could offer them my support and love.

I met a TW who worked in a cafe. Went out of my way to be kind. We became friends! We were invited to a mutual friend's Halloween party. We were chatting, laughing and I was having a great time.

Later that night that same tw sexually assaulted me.

I was so confused. What went wrong? I confronted my tw friend and demanded why. Tw said he thought my friendliness was actually flirting. I asked why because I am straight and I had already made that clear when tw said they were a lesbian. Tw apologised and said needed to work on their male entitlement.

I forgave the friend. But something felt off. Tw and I continued to be friends and was telling me a story of a trip to the gym where tw used a female changing room. My friend was pre op. Laughed when describing how the women were deeply uncomfortable when they saw tw penis. Called the women "crusty old crones".

A few months later, I found out Karen White, the convicted rapist, also with an intact penis was going to be transfered to the women's prison. I shared the article about it on Facebook, expressing concern that this tw may in fact try to rape the inmates.

I was immediately shut down and cast out by some of my closest friends. Days later, Karen White sexually assaulted women in the prison.

I had also befriended another tw, also with an in tact penis. This one was in a relationship with a woman. They claimed to be lesbians. I asked how this was so because my understanding was that lesbians have female bodies. It was explained to me that lesbian means attracted to feminine qualities and obsession with genitals is a fetish and transphobic.

At that point I had a nervous breakdown because everything I thought I knew was turned upside down.

It took me nearly a year to process and assess what I was being told by transwomen and what my heart and eyes were telling me. My own past sexual assaults came back and I was thrust into very severe PTSD. I stopped going out, I quit the gym, I became a shadow of myself.

I was a proud feminist and I was being called a bigot. My life was about championing minorities and yet I myself was now being called a bully. But my experiences of men and sexual assault, rape, domestic violence and gaslighting were in conflict with being a trans rights champion. I am now the perpetrator?

How can I be?

Every day, the news showed trans women demanding access to rape shelters, prisons, women and girl's spaces.

I finally realised and accepted I had just been wrong and women and girls are experiencing a new wave of misogyny and oppression. Our very language is under threat. I am pregnant at the moment and in maternity, I am being asked to replace woman or mother with pregnant or birthing person. It is seen as bigotry and transphobic to use the word woman.

Everywhere I look, women are attacked and being silenced.

So no Owen Jones. You are wrong. This isn't the square root of fuck all to do with me.

The very legal definition of woman is under attack. Our rights are under attack like never before. Who we can say no to sex with is under attack. Our sexual boundaries, our right to define ourselves legally and medically under attack.

You're the radicalised bigot. You are cruel, you are heartless. You sir are a deeply misogynistic entitled male. And your video has only confirmed my position.

I stand with same sex attracted people. I stand for the safety and dignity of women and girls. I stand for defending and strengthening women's sex based rights. Now till the day I die I will stand for that.

Here's my translation:

As a meat-eater who calls themselves a vegetarian who knows dozens of meat-eaters who call themselves vegetarians, it does feel that people who know the difference between foods are constantly trying to push the idea that meat-eaters who call themselves vegetarians are attempting to force actual vegetarians [to eat meat?].

This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly meat-eating) people who know the difference between foods attempting to shame people who say they're vegetarians for eating meat. [I think you'll find they're shaming meat-eaters for saying they're vegetarian, not for the meat-eating per se.]

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to "de-vegetarian" meat-eaters who call themselves vegetarian like this - it's utterly vegetarian-phobic and wrong.

Great post SwordToFlamethrower

👏👏👏

He doesn't have any argument, so his tactic is to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him on this subject as rabid, far right, bigoted 'monsters'. If he had an actual argument he wouldn't need to do this would he? He could just say 'i think you're wrong, this is why, but you are of course entitled to ypur opinion'.

He still has not addressed whether or not he agrees or disagree with the Stonewall statement about excluding trans people from your dating pool based on the fact they are not of the sex you are attracted to being prejudiced. It's all 'of course you can choose who you sleep with' obfuscation, because he thinks that will do the trick.

As an aside, I can't lie, I am kind of here for his transformation from skinny, weedy, geeky perpetual to vest wearing, chain wearing, six pack toting hunk! Its fascinating, I wonder whats behind it!

Your post is incredible @SwordToFlamethrower . So powerfully articulated. Thank you.
So sorry you had those awful experiences.
I wish people like OJ could see what you've written, though I doubt they would really hear it sadly...

Seconded