Owen Jones's video

[SecretTransTwitterEngineer]

Owen Jones posted a response to a person on Twitter who had suggested that he needed to have engaged in a relationship with a trans man to be supportive of trans issues, but turned into a commentary about anti-trans activism generally.

Video

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

Therefore, those denigrating words of ‘cis-heteronormative ’ are also meaningless and activists should stop using that combination of words.

It means "people who don't like our nonsense". Which is actually kind of good, because it's not really about identity any more, and anyone of any sexuality can be "cis-heteronormative", but it's bad because it's re-using words that used to mean something for general "bad people".

(See also "whiteness" from the DiAngelo/Kendi types - basically exactly the same definition as "cis-heteronormative" - rejection of their ideas, regardless of actual race of the person objecting).

Do you attribute the straight bit to their sex or the gender they perceive themselves to be?

I wish the people who are constantly tinkering about with word definitions to the point where the word becomes completely useless would just invent new ones instead.

woman is taken
lesbian is taken
man is taken
gay is taken

find some other words and we can have a proper conversation but it’s impossible when OP is using old words with new meanings.

I think what OP is saying is that Lesbians would be perfectly happy having sex with 'lesbians with penises' if it wasn't for us mean gc feminists making them feel ashamed about it.

One baby step at a time. So in old money, OP is a gay man?

They could be a female person without a gender ?

So in old money, OP is a gay man?

It's not possible to say because although they've declared themself to be a "straight trans woman", we have no idea what they mean by ""straight" or "trans" or "woman".

I think that it is again very clear from this snippet below that Owen Jones is very much the type of person that is all about ‘you can think it but don’t speak it’. What I cannot believe is that transpeople accept this as it is hypocritical.

Owen Jones doesn’t seem to believe that for sexual purposes trans people are the sex they claim to be. Is that acceptable to people like the OP? That these people are not fully believing, they just don’t say it.

What a fucked up way to live if you are surrounded by people who are effectively lying to you all the time. How do you cope with not knowing what people really think of you, yet you consider them a friend?

twitter.com/sorelle_arduino/status/1570788421437890561?s=46&t=AMY84kWiccbegVHzTpMFWA

And yes, lots of DARVO in this section of that video.

It's not possible to say because although they've declared themself to be a "straight trans woman", we have no idea what they mean by ""straight" or "trans" or "woman".

We can probably narrow it down a bit? Probably human, at least. Probably.

Would that then be ‘pansexual’?

non gay Transwoman a gay biological Male

So ignore the transwoman as that is not relevant - trans could be many flavours of sexuality (straight or gay or bi etc).

Non gay is straight.

So straight man is a gay man - probably not.

Need to look at the reasons why someone has decided they are trans to answer that.

OP affects concern about gay men and women” who want to have sex with opposite sex trans people, because OP doesn’t believe that’s the contradiction in terms that it is.

Basically, OP is mad that we won’t call the wives of late transitioning AGPs lesbians, even when they call themselves that.

We also need to remember that lesbians neither have, or ever had, penises. And are attracted to, and have relationships with other women who don't have and never had, penises.

And it is their right to call themselves lesbians.

What we are seeing now, as highlighted by @glinner, is that straight men are now signing up to gay dating apps, specifically to target females who identify themselves as transmen.

None of this benefits women, females, at all. It only benefits men, males.

Basically, OP is mad that we won’t call the wives of late transitioning AGPs lesbians, even when they call themselves that.

Which is what so much of this is about - the desire to compel people to participate in other people's role-play.

(Also including the wife in that scenario).

I’ve never seen any shaming either. I’m as terfy as they come but I don’t go around defining peoples relationships to them. I know really that my trans man former lesbian friend who is in a relationship with a non binary male is in a heterosexual relationship but I’m not combative enough to mention it!

However, lots a lesbians say there is a problem with sexual coercion from some trans women. These trans women probably feel entitled because people like Nancy Kelly think sexual preferences are “sexual racism”. Or they feel entitled because they are male and it’s a tale as old as time.

my trans man former lesbian friend who is in a relationship with a non binary male is in a heterosexual relationship but I’m not combative enough to mention it!

Agree. Most of us are polite enough to at least try and stop our eyebrows reaching our hairline’s in this scenario!

But politely ignoring an individual’s muddled labelling in a
social setting is one thing.
Keeping quiet while Stonewall, Mermaids et al completely redefine homosexuality in a way that no longer protects the exclusively same sex attracted against discrimination is quite another.

(Eff off Mermaids and Eff you errant apostrophe!)

Agreed

i think most posters are correct in their workings out of what the OP means, it would be good if the OP could come back at some point and confirm

OP, can you give one single example of a GC person saying that it's shameful for anyone to sleep with trans person as a consenting adult?

Not the only one who read the OP and didn't understand what they were talking about. All I can say is that I'm a lesbian and practically every publicly advertised lesbian social group I know has its cohort of male-sexed people turning up, some of them very clearly sexually interested in the women who attend.

I think more and more lesbians, many of whom were inclined to 'be kind' have had enough of it. We've lived with the male gaze all our lives and we know it when we see it in our own groups.

I don't thunk anyone tries to shame them as such, just point out that they are bisexual. I get so tired of people who have relationships woth both sexes calling themselves "gay" or "lesbian" and telling actual gay men and lesbians they are transphobic for not doing the same.

Owen Jones has been posting about how gay men should just keep quiet about their sexuality so as not to upset trans people. Yet he will never confirm whether he would sleep with a transman himself.

OP is certainly no Judith Butler.

I can't work out if you mean that as an insult or a compliment

I’m imagining a future hellscape where gay and lesbian teens come out only to be told ‘that’s ok son, just make sure you only date transmen so you can have babies in the normal way’

and ‘That’s OK, daughter, just stick to transwomen who haven’t transitioned much and your lesbianism can be secret’

proper Black Mirror plotline stuff.

OP seems to be saying that GC activists are trying to shame same sex attracted gay men and lesbian women if they want to enter into relationships with trans people who also identify as gay or lesbian (ie opposite sex attracted) and that this is homophobic.

Oh, right. I don't think shaming former lesbians or gay men who choose to enter a heterosexual relationship is much of thing in my circles. Obviously we'd be sad to see them go and it would mean that the former lesbian involved would no longer qualify to come along to lesbian-only groups — but lesbians understand that. Having once been lesbians they understand why lesbians needs lesbian-only space. If there are any gay men reading this, perhaps they could offer their pov.

Not Black Mirror. Iran, now. Have surgery, present as a straight couple and you're fine. Insist on living and loving someone who appears to be the same sex and the hangman's noose beckons.