Owen Jones's video

[SecretTransTwitterEngineer]

Owen Jones posted a response to a person on Twitter who had suggested that he needed to have engaged in a relationship with a trans man to be supportive of trans issues, but turned into a commentary about anti-trans activism generally.

Video

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

Where is OP, could you pop back and clarify some points please?

It is interesting that the progressive position is that when there's a clash of rigths it is vital that those whose rights are adversely affected should have a voice to put forward their position.

Except in the case of conflicts relating to gender identity. In that case, lesbians must remain silent, to speak is harmful.

To get away from the gender confusion, and redraft in another model, I think the statement might be:

"Vegetarians telling meat-eaters that they're not vegetarians is more common than meat-eaters trying to get vegetarians to eat meat".

Possibly true, but it's still the "vegetarian meat eaters" that are being unreasonable either way, just to different degrees.

I understand.

OP is saying it’s wrong and homophobic to say that if a female is sexually attracted to a male then she is not a lesbian.

OP uses the stonewall/mermaids etc definition of lesbian - it’s about gender identity. So if a bearded, bepenised person says they are a woman, and a woman afab have piv sex, they are lesbians.

Most here (and I think most of the population of the UK) think being lesbian is about being same-sex attracted and would say that OP’s definition is homophonic and erasing lesbians.

Some of us are very angry about this. OP sounds angry too. I don’t see how a compromise can be reached.

Yes, I can't see a compromise either.

My daughter believes gender is innate and very important to her (and everyone's) identity. I believe gender is a set of restrictive, culturally imposed values that should be broken down and abandoned.

No compromise there either...

I believe that video was about this statement from John Nicholson MP, a male with apparently a history of homophobia at university before declaring himself to be a gay man.

‘ JN - you are a lesbian because you declare yourself one. ‘

Let’s just make it clear to everyone that this was a male telling females what they should accept as the meaning of the word used to describe themselves.

And it sounds like this male is NOT the only one telling female homosexual people who they should be describing with the word they use to describe themselves.

(Plus maybe the OP is too, but that is still word salad. Please OP, you need to clarify what you mean in your post, or are you just posting a rant from another male telling females what their words mean, and calling females who object vile names, for reasons we cannot speculate about here?)

The OP here is utterly impenetrable.

And that, kids, is why language matters. It's why we're having to fight to retain words, meanings, definitions...and when anyone says, oh be kind, it doesn't matter...jist look at this op and see why.

Op, you make zero sense.

OP seems to be saying that GC activists are trying to shame same sex attracted gay men and lesbian women if they want to enter into relationships with trans people who also identify as gay or lesbian (ie opposite sex attracted) and that this is homophobic.

Is a non-trans person someone who actively has a gender identity, never wears clothes associated with the opposite sex or the opposite gender, and this is never fluid?

You know many gay people like this?

The OP here is utterly impenetrable.

Maybe those with twitter in their user name have become used to communicating in short form. And maybe it doesn’t quite play out as well in long form posting.

The language is all so blurred now that I read ‘straight trans woman’ and have no idea whether you are into people with penises or without them.

if only we could at least get back to defining sexuality as attraction based on sex characteristics then we could at least be clear.

Damn. I shouldn’t have started reading this thread before my first cup of tea. Now I want to go back to sleep and let my brain untangle.

OP is certainly no Judith Butler.

This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

Ironic that you used the words "divorced from reality".

Do you have any evidence of this shaming? I've never seen any. All I've seen is the disagreement that a biological male and a biological female can be in a same sex relationship.

To be consistent "a straight trans woman" would be a male person attracted to someone of either sex who says they have a masculine gender identity.

A “straight trans woman,” to my foggy early morning brain, is a gay man (as I assume the OP believes TWAW)… so to be “straight” in that situation means being attracted to other men.

Or something.

I don’t think there’s a sufficient level of coffee that could induce me to think hard on this, this early on a weekend.

I don’t think gay men (the actual male ones) are subjected to the same coercive #bekind messages as lesbians (the actual female ones).

I think it’s important that in view of the explosion of girls now identifying as trans they are aware that, if they are heterosexual females, their dating pool will be reduced. IIRC OJ was horrified by the thought of performing cunnilingus on a transman. Even though their vagina and vulva now identifies as a male one.

I'm not clicking on an Owen Jones video. I don't fund hate.

I read ‘straight trans woman’ and have no idea whether you are into people with penises or without them.

That is exactly where the testimonies of Paul Roberts and John Nicholson left it this week.

There are no definitions for any sexual orientation now. Heterosexual people can describe themselves as homosexual and bisexual, and homosexual people and bisexual people can be heterosexual.

Therefore, those denigrating words of ‘cis-heteronormative ’ are also meaningless and activists should stop using that combination of words.

OJ’s video is pure DARVO. People pulled him up on the fact that he tweeted a kind of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” statement about sleeping with trans men. That is, he basically implied he wouldn’t but that it was ok if you didn’t tell them (ie tell them the reason is because you’re only attracted to the same sex ).

OJ has proved that despite all his shouting at lesbians on Twitter who won’t sleep with trans women, he actually thinks the same, else he wouldn’t have to differentiate between men and trans men, and wouldn’t be refusing to sleep with trans men.

When that was pointed out, he went off on a long rant calling people names and trying to distract his fans from the fact he was well aware of trans men’s sex despite chanting the TW are women, TM are men mantra.

As said above, lovely old Stonewall who are supposed to be supporting L, G and B people, call being same-sex attracted (aka gay or lesbian) akin to sexual racism and suggest people should unlearn their “societal prejudices”. Gross homophobia.

And yet we’re the ones who are apparently transphobic?!

This is the problem Op when people co-opt words that already have meanings and use them for something else. We have no idea what you’re trying to say. Of course it will be along the lines of “feminists are big meanies” but until people stop using the word woman to describe someone male we have no hope of having a sensible conversation about this.

I could probably set up a caffeine drip and still not get it

I don’t think gay men (the actual male ones) are subjected to the same coercive #bekind messages as lesbians (the actual female ones).

In fairness, there is an increasing amount of online chatter saying they are but I agree it's nothing like the same degree. There are no cotton ceiling training courses for transmen.

It will never be either, because lesbians are female. Transwomen are not and can never be female, therefore cannot be lesbian.

i.e. what we used to call ‘bisexual!’