Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chameber) Thread 2

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (?? September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (?? September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - Not yet available
Dr Belinda Bell: Not yet available
Beverley Jackson: Not yet available
Kate Harris: Not yet available
Eileen Gallagher: Not yet available

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

I'm only going by the tweets but she is fantastic.

I know.
im trying to express my thanks to
her without sounding like a patronising twat. Il let others do
that for me.

But I’m cheering her on , loudly !

It's useful to keep in mind the main point. Should an organisation be able to campaign in this way, being robust on twitter and elsewhere against other organisations they disagree with, and going after a particular charity? Yes of course. Should a charity? I don't know, that's why we're here.

The answer to this, as far as I can establish from Stonewall et al, is that gender is different from sex (hence your birth sex can be "wrong" for your gender), but sex is the same as gender (therefore whatever your gender is dictates what sex you are).

This is a perfect encapsulation both of the view itself and its inherent lunacy.

It’s like she’s not just taking one for the team. She formed the team, grew the team and is now leading the teamfrom the front!
<goes to make a cup of tea to calm down and return to reading a book about Joan of Arc>

The answer to this, as far as I can establish from Stonewall et al, is that gender is different from sex (hence your birth sex can be "wrong" for your gender), but sex is the same as gender (therefore whatever your gender is dictates what sex you are).

I can't think of a plainer way of putting it than that!

spot on @LaughingPriest

Bernard great post, you might wish to save it (if you haven't). MN might take it down, because 'm' word, though I don't see it's problematic in its context.

Another great post @BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

I can’t believe they took this case to tribunal without knowing this likely outcome of shining light on the nuts and bolts of gender identity. I’m inclined to agree with the poster that this is their swansong. A final tantrum on the way out, again trying to turn the spotlight away from their own affairs.

Oh shit - I hadn't realised that the Paediatrics paper she had cited was that Jack Turban one. LOL!

Yes as well as paedophilia, there is also a castration/eunuch fetish that wants to be included in the + I think it was WPATH

Scottish NHS included it as a gender identity and they should be helped by receiving a castration on the NHS.

Ahh, this is what happens to me, will now stop chucking my phone around when it does.

the various attempts to bring other things in under the + brings LGB movement into disrepute.

Absolutely true, and well evidenced, but even if it weren't, there is still absolutely nothing wrong with just being for the LGB, arguing for the LGB as a specific group pertaining to sexuality and nothing else - not fetish, not medical condition, not ideological approach, not mental health condition, etc. One can separate the LGB from the T without making ANY judgement whatsoever on any of the other additional letters.

Why is it that 'LGB' became this catch-all category where anyone with any vaguely non-conforming qualities can be or would want to be included in that category? Since when did adding or removing words from categories become so ideologically loaded?

MG really don't like the concept that "Extreme Christian movements are not part of the "trans movement"."

MG: This can't be true. "Trans movement" is Stonewall, it's Mermaids.

He's now backed away from that swamp.

What a mess of a post. Trying again:

MG is keen to state that "Extreme Christian movements are not part of the "trans movement"."

MG: This can't be true. "Trans movement" is Stonewall, it's Mermaids.

He's now backed away from that swamp.

Isn't the point that Stonewall and Mermaids don't condemn the transing of effeminate children in right wing Christian families because they would view them as just as "trans" as the next child that declares a trans identity. They don't even acknowledge that this is a problem so how can it be guarded against.

Are the witness statements publicly available / shareable?

Very like my Uncle Norman's old "joke"

Q: What's the difference between a duck?

A: One of its legs is both the same.

Makes similar sense.

Are the witness statements publicly available / shareable?

Some of them are on the LGBA website I think.

Have a look at lgballiance.org.uk/latest/ TheBiologyStupid. The witness statements come available when witness are giving/have given (not sure which) evidence.

@nauticant I've pm'd you

further to the idea that Mermaids aren't advocating for trans youth, it seems to me that what they're actually doing is advocating for transing youth

they seem to regard every child who identifies as trans as a 'win'

Dr Cass's interim review has resulted in the biggest shake-up of clinical services for trans children ever. And Mermaids themselves potentially came in for criticism in that review, they must be aware of that.

Well, they would be if they read it...

BJ: it's a quasi-religious belief system that is being imposed on society and on me, and that is the problem - imposing this
MG you are fighting back against the imposition not the ideology?
BJ: yes

Reminds me of when that high up fella at Tavi was talking about how their ‘Kids on The Edge’ channel 4 programme (the one the Tavi produced themselves) was bringing in lots of new faces to GIDS.

oh, and when Mermaids were appearing in the advertising breaks in YouTube videos for Minecraft.

whether they’ve purposely created trans kids for clout/financial reasons or by accident? I expect we’ll need a proper public enquiry to answer that.