Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chameber) Thread 2

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (?? September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (?? September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - Not yet available
Dr Belinda Bell: Not yet available
Beverley Jackson: Not yet available
Kate Harris: Not yet available
Eileen Gallagher: Not yet available

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

@ClimbingCancelled they're having a short break until 11:00.

Despite all the aggro this has cost LGBA in terms of time and money, it might come to seem like a gift to them - it has given them the opportunity to lay out their beliefs clearly and unequivocally, in plain English, in front of the public.

Bev: 69 countries around the world criminalise same sex attraction

we should not cloud the understanding of that by making it hard to understand what homosexuality is

standing and applauding here

Can't we at least get this nailed down once and for all? SW says they're the same, others say they're the same, Mermaids now say they're different.

Mermaids are behind the trend - trans orgs used to say that sex and gender were different until we all started going, ‘Sweet. You do gender anyway you fancy but stay out of single sex spaces that aren’t for your sex’

then the orgs had to pivot back. Mermaids are on last years playbook.

a fascinating example of the language shifts is in the initials used to describe male genital surgery.

SRS = Sex Reassignment Surgery
GRS = Gender Recognition Surgery
GRS = Genital Reconstruction Surgery
GAS = Gender Affirmation Surgery

if sex and gender are the same, why did the mermaids ceo need to take a 16 year old abroad for an operation that removed male sex organs?

is sex and gender are different (and sex is M/F and gender is man/woman) why do some male born transitioners say they have a ‘female’ gender identity? And vice versa.

Why does a GENDER recognition certificate allow for the changing of the SEX marker on a birth certificate?

Why should a trans persons gender change the way homosexuals define their orientation?

NO ONE CAN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS CONSISTENTLY which is why the LGBT orgs are all constantly tinkering with definitions, depending on the questions at the time.

which is how you end up with serious awkward situations like lesbians being called ‘vagina fetishists’ or ‘sexual racists’.

We should not be using words that cloud what homosexuality is. BJ talking about how using gender identity undermines the legal
definition of same sex attraction .

The hostility is from the other side BJ

BJ: The hostility, to be frank, is more from the other side. Young lesbians being made to feel guilty because not attracted to someone with a penis. We say it's fine to only be attracted to someone of the same sex, sans penis. [she didn't say sans!]

Disagreement must be possible in this country BJ

MG gets to his point in saying that fundamental to the aims of LGBA is "a hostility-to-the-gender-lobby approach to the world" which is interesting but I have no clue how it would be viewed by the judge in terms of LGBA being permitted to remain as a charity.

Nice analogy from Bev - pro life and pro abortion orgs should be able to exist in our society

I'd rather she called them pro-choice, though, really

This kM is pretty poor.
Sounds hesitant, not clear with rambling questions

BJ I'm sure many/most people at Mermaids are trying to help young people. Not a malevolent force. But differences of opinions - ours sexual orientations, theirs gender id and that's the difference between us.

Right on cue, first MN bug-out. Bloody software

I've been unable to keep up with this but trying to catch up!

In reference to the other thread, I once had a post reported (and deleted ) for saying someone had been "hoist with his own petard". I won't say who it was but it was someone who really doesn't like MN and likes to threaten individual MNers with legal action...

MG frames it as "gender inclusive" (as Mermaids characterises itself) vs "gender critical". BJ objects to the former term. The issue here is that Mermaids' characterisation is at the level of individuals while LGBA's is at the level of an ideology. It's apples and oranges but I suspect MG knew that.

Let's give her a break on her language usage.
She's really doing an outstanding job.

MG gets to his point in saying that fundamental to the aims of LGBA is "a hostility-to-the-gender-lobby approach to the world" which is interesting

And arguably true.

And fundamental to that lobby's current aims is a "hostility-to-sex-based-attraction approach to the world".

We'll all just have to get along, won't we?

MG is making some progress here in going through evidence showing LGBA challenging Mermaids rather than challenging the ideology. This goes against the LGBA arguments that they're not hostile to Mermaids and there's no conflict given the spheres of operation.

Yes

bJ “puberty blockers not reversible “

qn “ let’s cut this short”

The answer to this, as far as I can establish from Stonewall et al, is that gender is different from sex (hence your birth sex can be "wrong" for your gender), but sex is the same as gender (therefore whatever your gender is dictates what sex you are).

I can't think of a plainer way of putting it than that!

BJ: puberty blockers oft described reversible and harmless. I don't believe that true. Vast majority of children who start on pbs go on to x sex hormones, which = irreversible and puts them on pathway.
MG: BB would disagree. neither of you are medical
BJ: I think the Cass report makes it v clear

she is, and yes

It interesting how often Mermaids are able to assert that there's no evidence that children have been put on a medical pathway leading to lifelong changes that the children (now adults) regret. In the gender critical view, this problem is shown by the existence of detransitioners. This evidence exists and in future cases it should be gathered and submitted to deal with this denial.

therefore whatever your gender is dictates what sex you are

Which comes back to rejecting the biological evidence of our own eyes (and other senses).

Truly a leap of faith.