Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chameber) Thread 2

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (?? September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (?? September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - Not yet available
Dr Belinda Bell: Not yet available
Beverley Jackson: Not yet available
Kate Harris: Not yet available
Eileen Gallagher: Not yet available

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

Thanks for the thred. Off to catch up...

LOL at "unscambling the omelette" by BJ.

MG trying to suggest that using the term "male bodied" rather than "trans" is transphobic.

As Datun and others said earlier, they are basically making a case for the necessity of LGBA.

MG now trying the criticism that if some T people find LGBA's positions offensive, then they must be wrong.

Why do they all have to be force teamed together?

You don't see RNID having a pop at RNIB for excluding deaf people.

BJ: we do agree with trans rights as laid out in the EA

nice catch Bev

MG trying to walk her into implying she somehow doesn’t agree with trans rights

She is really good, isn't she? Very regal and very lucid.

Yes she's coming across well.

MG: T people have been very marginalised over many years.

The Most Oppressed Ever™ argument.

This is very scattergun. At least so far.

Bev is fabulous!

This is risible.

Essentially it’s like: MG: Are you saying people can’t literally change sex? BJ: Yes. MG: What about this instance in which your language seems to imply that you decline to pretend that people can’t literally change sex, mmmm? BJ: As I said, we don’t believe people can literally change sex.

doesn't this actually mean that those 9% would in old money have termed themselves homosexual?

I think so (ie they are people who are male and attracted to men or are female and attracted to women). Though I'd like to know where that stat is from, and if it includes bisexual people or just "straight". The data from the office of national statistics says that 3.1% of people over the age of 16 in the UK identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual. So although 9% doesn't sound like many, they are clearly very over-represented here. Which is exactly what LGBA is concerned about.

Link to reference for my stat:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2020

BJ: Need to say first, we support trans rights in Equality Act, protection from discrimination etc. We don't accept that people can change sex. Some people may be offended, sure; we are offended that men can declare themselves lesbians.

Boom!!

BJ: It is offensive to us to say that a male-bodied person can be a lesbian.
I'm Jewish and have been called anti-semitic. I know what it's like to be called offensive things.
MG: trans people particularly marginalised
BJ: Lesbians are a particularly marginalised group of people in this society.

I strongly suspect Bev may walk among us here on occasion

this is well rehearsed and familiar reasoning

<salutes the watchers>

thanks for all the practice chaps!

Tbf I quite admire Mr Gibbon's manner, it has a sort of "let's solve this knotty problem together" approach. I imagine it's pretty effective. Especially if people read his name and subliminally expect him to be whooping and swinging from tree to tree. 😁

BJ: Need to say first, we support trans rights in Equality Act, protection from discrimination etc. We don't accept that people can change sex. Some people may be offended, sure; we are offended that men can declare themselves lesbians.

In the film, everyone stands and applauds

MG: reads
BJ: I thought a long time before writing that. I thought about my own experiences in the 1970s. And today people are saying that it is possible to be someone with a penis and be a lesbian. Lesbians not welcome at pride. And more, when lesbians try to march they are attack. That is homophobic. It is sad. We would rather not to have had to form, to be honest.

The difference in tone and thought from her as opposed to the others questioned so far is palpable.

The best gibbon video ever SelfPortraitWithFoxInSmokingJacket:

But she mentioned that statistic, as far as I can recall, to refute the idea that Mermaids were encouraging 'training away the gay'.

It's contradictory and nonsensical.

MG is trying to cast doubt on the "fact" that "sex is immutable". BJ is flummoxed. MG soon gave up.

Is Gibbon really proposing "sex is immutable" is NOT a fact?

The fact of biological sex is only BJ's perception!

JFC It is not her perception, IT IS A FACT, it is not subjective opinion. FFS

What? He is floundering here.