Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chameber) Thread 2

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (?? September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (?? September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - Not yet available
Dr Belinda Bell: Not yet available
Beverley Jackson: Not yet available
Kate Harris: Not yet available
Eileen Gallagher: Not yet available

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

This is cuckoo.

We're definitely entering Scopes monkey trials territory here aren't we?

Sorry is he trying to imply that humans cannot change sex is not a fact and just made up by Bev?

BJ says she supports "trans rights". That's uncontroversial. The reason why MG is trying to talk past her on this point is because what she doesn't support the modern manifestation of gender identity ideology. These are, in many respects, not the same thing.

Yes.

Are you using an iPad, cos i had the same issue yesterday.

But when I tried it on the laptop, it worked a treat, straight away.

I know it's the same system as the previous tribunals, but it's definitely a pain in the arse this time around, but I'm not sure why.

But she mentioned that statistic, as far as I can recall, to refute the idea that Mermaids were encouraging 'training away the gay'.

I can't see any way it works with her quoted "only 9% straight" stat unless she's mashing together two opposing definitions.

Establishing nicely that this is a fundamental difference of opinion on basis of belief. Non compatible views.

Good. This may actually go somewhere. There is no reconciling this, there never will be. There can only be parallel provisions and mutual tolerance. With no one side entitled to eliminate provision from the other on the grounds of it being offensive to their faith that it exists.

MG is suggesting that lesbians are not being told that it's mandatory to accept male-bodied people in their dating pools.

MG is doing this a lot. A very insinuating approach rather than presenting evidence.

This is really highlighting the conflict of rights isn't it?

BJ expresses the problem as relating to "Women's sport, women's prisons, rape shelters and so on ... not only women's toilets". She's got a good grip.

It is highly difficult to work out with the muddling up of language, but I thought she is most likely referring to kids on the basis of their preferred identified as sex. So a male person identifying as a girl/woman who is attracted to females in her book would be gay.

Where those who believe homosexuality is wholly and only sex based regardless of chosen gender identity would say that person was straight.

So I suspect her 91% gay in fact and reality of homosexuality being a same biological sex class preference means that 91% are straight and identifying as gay. With 9% who are actually homosexual, and identifying as straight.

Fundamental difference of view based on how you regard biological sex.

Yes: this is establishing beyond any doubt that there is a conflict of rights here and it should come in useful when challenging the GRA and making changes to strengthen women's rights in the EA.

Well done, Mermaids.

Thanks for the commentary everyone, much appreciated.

I've just got my log-in through so I can observe. Bev Jackson is a bit fabulous isn't she? Enviably cool, calm and collected in the face of MG's straw-clutching.

I don't understand the humans changing sex argument. Sex change surgery, as it used to be called has been more accurately referred to as gender reassignment since at least the early 1990s when I was nursing. You cannot change sex without somehow altering your dna that is an unrefutable fact.

She's coming across as compromising as well. "Let's acknowledge there is a conflict of rights and then we can talk about it"

Great response where BJ draws into the argument that the Police are being partisan in an important, contested, social issue.

That man is an idiot.

BJ: [re police branding] I don't think it's for the police to engage in social controversial issues of this kind, standing up for rights of people who consider gender id most impt while those who hold sexual orientation based on sex matters are vilified. Police shouldn't take a position on this. Once you acknowledge there is a conflict between gender id and sex, and the rights involved, then you can talk about it and move forward. I have a duty to the people we represent. The police should represent the whole community.

MG expects to have done with all the LGBA witnesses by the end of tomorrow.

@SlipperyLizard

I had to clear my cache and copy and paste the link into Chrome rather than clicking through, eventually it autofilled. Before clearing the cache I briefly landed a tribunal with EJG again, backed out rapidly, although it was nice to see her again!

Also on the Police question, MG tried to argue that the Police's alleged partisan behaviour simply reflected that of LGBA but BJ pointed out that the two entities have very different responsibilities.

Perfect.

Bev: But I'm not the police! I'm only responsible for representing the views of the people I represent. The police are the police, they're not supposed to be taking any side, they're supposed to treat everyone the same.

I think he's seriously underestimated BJ's capability and the quality of the GC argument.

That was a top day. Just think in your head about the contrast between Nicholson and Jackson, it was amazing.