Celebrity surrogacy - find this a bit heartbreaking

[Nowyouwillfeel]

Irish ‘celebrity’ couple with a new baby via surrogacy. The surrogate was one of the couples sister. They have put up pictures and stories all delighted and excited but I just see raw emotion on the mothers face in the second picture and in their stories the baby is clearly rooting for her mothers breast. I have a two month old who always does this and honestly it’s breaking my heart seeing the baby search like that while the dad doesn’t even notice and that she isn’t with her mother. They took the baby home before the mother was discharged and she is nowhere to be seen.

seems so unfair on both baby and the mother who doesn’t have any children of her own.

instagram.com/bprdowling?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

What? Surrogacy? I think every surrogacy situation should be assessed on its own merit. This particular one, I find the couples approach a bit weird and I thought the post about aoife the other day seemed forced, but I genuinely feel like this child will have a good life. That's my opinion.

I didn't say she hasn't been coerced? This entire thread is speculation, including my posts and yours.

As I pointed out it’s not about making laws. The framework question about challenging ideas. It forces people to consider problems they might not have otherwise and hopefully shifts opinion. If enough people see the realities of the downsides of surrogacy then law makers have a harder job to allow it. It’s about expanding opinion because the vast majority of people with pro-surrogacy opinions have considered none of it.

@NotBadConsidering but why? People are allowed to have their view on this specific case, without being compelled to get bogged down on the overall morals and legal arrangements around surrogacy. A simple statement was made at the beginning of this thread in that op found if a bit sad and then others proceeded to give their view. It's turned in to a debate which we're never going to resolve. Let people have their opinions.

I don’t think that answers my question. Do you believe it’s worth the risk?

You wrote:

I'm not talking about a woman who has been coerced in to something. Aoife agreed to this. The ins and outs of it we'll never know so stop painting her as a victim. Tbh if I was her I'd be offended by how patronising you all are

So I assumed you were confident she hadn’t been coerced.

@NotBadConsidering my opinion based on the facts presented is that she hasn't been coerced. We'll never know.

@Floisme I answered your question. Every surrogacy case is different and should be assessed on its own merits. Unless I'm directly involved, I have no idea if it's worth the risk or not. I can only speculate.

I've not rtft but here's my 5 cents worth.

1. It's no one's business but theirs.
2. It was considered over an extended period of time by consenting adults. This indicates that pros and cons would have been duly considered.
3. The baby is going to a loving home and will have a relationship with her aunty (who is NOT her bio mother)
4. This baby is wanted and longed for. Way more than many babies who are brought into this world in the conventional way.
5. It's no one's business but theirs.

My sister went through a long period of infertility and I always said I'd carry a baby for her. It's really no one's judgement to make.

Yes you’ve expressed your opinion and been challenged on it. That’s how this forum works generally.

Yes, I agree. I'm happy to be challenged on my opinion but don't keep saying the same shit about protecting people, etc. that's not for us to decide.

This!

Why can’t we discuss protecting people? 🤨 Why can’t we collaborate to help influence legislators? Are you aware that many here have used discussions on these forums to actively engage with those forming surrogacy laws in various countries?

@NotBadConsidering if that happens then great! I wasn't aware. I'd love to see some links to threads that did have influence.

This thread is the best starting point:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3782983-surrogacy-resource-thread-please-post-your-links-here

It’s a helpful resource. Information here has been used to email the UK public consultation on surrogacy. It’s not known if any influence has been successful because it’s an ongoing process that hasn’t been decided, but at least collaborating here has given people the chance to influence. Surrogacy is banned in most of Europe for good reasons.

Oh wow, you must know this family?
We are all speculating over questions so please if not too outing, let us know the specifics of how Brian and Aiofie reached their decision?

Always said... but you dident tho did you.

There are literally things that people who aren’t parents wouldn’t understand. Birth is 1000% one of them. The truth hurts. lol

@mydogsteppedonabee It's no one's business but theirs.
This is absolutely untrue as a child is involved.

This has been a really interesting thread. We can't know the exact circumstances in this example of Brian Dowling and his sister. On the face of it, it'll probably look like surrogacy works. I believe we should make it illegal though as there's no good way you can properly legislate for all the things that could happen in the pregnancy or to any of the people involved between initially making plans and final legal guardianship of the child. I bet there are many stories we don't hear of it going very wrong.

Children are not commodities, and women are not baby making machines. it is disgusting how celebrity birth announcements are worded when the baby was born to a surrogate mother. it is so inhumane... "X and X welcomed their baby X via a surrogate". Where is the public discourse that prianka chopra and Joe jonas should have spent more time together not working so they could actually have sex and have a baby naturally? Rather than risk another woman's health for their child?

In canada surrogacy agencies have been caught pushing surrogates to document as many receipts as possible to try to max out the legal payment to charge the parents to be. No one is certain why but it’s obviously something nefarious. It’s illegal to compensate a surrogate to anything other than medical expenses because basically they don’t want the mothers profiting from it so they will only do it out of the goodness of their hearts and because they really really want to. But there really isn’t anything that clearly defines what a medical expense is. On the flip side parents to be actually harassed a surrogate so much over money that she aborted their fetus. That one was an interesting story. Surrogacy is a bit crazy in canada.

People are allowed to have their view on this specific case, without being compelled to get bogged down on the overall morals and legal arrangements around surrogacy.

Well of course they're allowed. But if they haven't done any basic thinking about the morality and legality, their views are kind of worthless, aren't they? Why would you hold a view at all if you think morals and legalities are not worth getting "bogged down" in?

But you now seem to be backpedalling on the whole thing by telling everyone else to find evidence of your assertions and claiming the whole discussion is pointless anyway, so why are you here? What are we supposed to take from you? Your right to hold a thoroughly unsubstantiated and ill-informed view? Is that your only defence of it - that you can say it?

So on one side we have:

Pregnancy and childbirth are unpredictable and irrevocably change- damage- a woman's body.

Women who haven't experienced it are unlikely to be able to imagine the consequences.

It's not easy to ensure no coercion is involved, especially within families or where money is involved.

Babies removed at birth suffer trauma.

On the other side we have:

It's really nice for people who can't (in a few cases, don't want to because of the above) have babies naturally to have a baby.

Surely by some of the arguments here adoption or ss removing a child from birth should also be illegal?

Can't find the post about adoption now, but for prospective adoptive parents, the vetting was quite rigorous in Ireland around 20+ years ago. Quite rightly so. A family member went through the process.

Surrogacy is a completely different kettle of fish to adoption, in any case.

If removing the child at birth is the lesser of two evils then it should be done, obviously. That kind of situation goes through a judge and is considered very carefully and the damage that will be done be removing the child is given appropriate weight in the balance of risks.

Surrogacy is completely different because it is not done for the benefit of the child.

@missbipolar as has been constantly said on this thread, if you read it- adoption is a last resort, to avoid further harm to the baby.

The new parents are rigorously scrutinised for their suitability.

Neither is true in surrogacy.