Celebrity surrogacy - find this a bit heartbreaking

[Nowyouwillfeel]

Irish ‘celebrity’ couple with a new baby via surrogacy. The surrogate was one of the couples sister. They have put up pictures and stories all delighted and excited but I just see raw emotion on the mothers face in the second picture and in their stories the baby is clearly rooting for her mothers breast. I have a two month old who always does this and honestly it’s breaking my heart seeing the baby search like that while the dad doesn’t even notice and that she isn’t with her mother. They took the baby home before the mother was discharged and she is nowhere to be seen.

seems so unfair on both baby and the mother who doesn’t have any children of her own.

instagram.com/bprdowling?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Whether aoife was coerced at all (which I would vehemently disagree with) there is no way of knowing

This statement is contradictory.

You can't say you 'vehemently disagree' that she was coerced while in the same breath acknowledging you can't know.

The fact is there is often a power imbalance, even in altruistic surrogacy (true here, he's the famous one) and it will always be extremely difficult to assess whether someone's been emotionally manipulated or pressurised into the act. That's before you get into whether Aoife can meaningfully consent to something she has no experience of and what was done to protect her rights had she been injured, disabled or even killed by the birth. Or what if the baby had had serious issues.

I agree that on the face of it, this looks as close to an acceptable face of surrogacy as we get. However there's a lot we don't know about Aoife's position and a lot of pure luck that there were no major complications.

I might have phrased that badly. I meant I disagree with coercion but in this instance, I don't see any evidence to suggest that she was.

Completely agree that it's a tricky one given the family dynamic and the celebrity brother. I really hope (and do believe) that she willingly put herself forward for this and didn't feel pressured. If she did and is happy with the outcome and the baby is in good hands, loved, fed, and well looked after then I see no issue with it. That's all I'm saying.

If someone/a couple were to coerce a woman in to carrying their baby or took the baby off the birth mother against her will, that would be a completely different matter which I wouldn't agree with.

I know a gay male who has a child with a lesbian couple. They went through ivf, live close to each other and bring the child up just as divorced couples do, the child is with their mum on certain days and their dad on others. So gay men can have biological children, theh just have to deal with the fact that there also is a mother. I think it's healthier than surrogacy. The child is being brought up by both biological parents.

At least, I thought it was ivf.... could have been turkey baster method as well, I'm not sure now.

That's before you get into whether Aoife can meaningfully consent to something she has no experience of

Yes. I keep seeing this phrase, 'All parties involved have agreed' and I keep asking how, if this is Aoife's first child - as seems to be the case - can she have given informed consent? How can she possibly have understood what she was agreeing to if she had never before grown a baby in her own body and given birth?

I'm not saying by the way that I believe informed consent can never be possible - I haven't yet reached a view on that. I just don't see how it can have been given in this particular case.

The fact is there is often a power imbalance, even in altruistic surrogacy (true here, he's the famous one)

has there EVER been a celebrity surrogacy story where the surrogate mother is the celebrity and the commissioning parent is a non-famous person?

anywhere in the world?

Why has this been moved from AIBU?

if I believed in conspiracy theories I’d think Mumsnet want to keep contentious subjects hidden.

I really hope (and do believe) that she willingly put herself forward for this and didn't feel pressured. If she did and is happy

The issue is that there's no way to ensure this.

If she did, that was nothing more or less than good luck. It's almost impossible to safeguard the mother here and that's why I think it should be made illegal.

This is so true - consider the difference in approach if Aoife had offered one of her kidneys to Brian for transplant. The multi disciplinary team would be making a decisions based on things like full consent, full understanding , dynamics of family etc.

I also think we (Ireland) are very ‘normalised’ to the idea of babies being taken from their mothers and raised by ‘betters’. It was the foundation of the idea of Mother and Baby Homes and I’m. It sure we have ever reconciled or processed the harm done to babies and their mothers. I heard Joanne McNally speak about her birth mother’s experience, where Joanne spent her first two years in a home and her birth mother visited at the weekend for two years until the adoption. I don’t think we can imagine a society where it is considered inhumane to separate mothers from their children . We don’t know what that would look like.

I do get your point. It could certainly be more regulated and possibly having checks like mandatory therapy, for example, to ensure the implications are understood by the surrogate would be an idea. In this case, they might have done things like this to make sure aoife was ok with it. We don't know.

In my opinion, making it illegal is extreme but somewhere in the middle of unregulated and illegal (i.e. regulated with checks in place) is a solution.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this here so I don't accidentally spend my entire day on MN 😂 Thanks for your responses.

Apologies if I sound like a dog at a bone but I still don't understand how even the best therapy in the world would have helped Aoife fully understand the implications of what she was doing. I had absolutely no clue beforehand how pregnancy and childbirth would affect my body, my health, my emotions, my mindset. Forever. I don't see how anyone can.

It’s not even about Aoife, for me. She’s an adult.

Surrogacy doesn’t centre the child, who is vulnerable, has high needs and needs a mother to supply them.

The only circumstances in which a newborn child should be cared for without a mother in the early weeks should be catastrophic ones, eg maternal illness or death. The child comes first, once it’s here.

I asked a similar thing (previous page) @TheClogLady
Lots of celebrities are quite fine with surrogacy (sometimes after having their own bio children so not always "the only option available") but not sure if any have offered their own womb/body, or persuaded an equally wealthy celeb friend to help them achieve their wish to have a child.

Right of gay (male) couple to become parents

Means:
A right for men to use women's bodies to fulfil their own desires
A right to require women to put their lives and health on the line for the benefit of those men and for those women to suffer pain so they get what they want
A right to take a baby from its mother.
If not genetically related to that mother (donor eggs) then the right to demand a second woman puts her health at risk in order to obtain those eggs and undergo a painful procedure.
A right to create a child with the purpose of divorcing it from its genetic lineage and often birth culture.
And that is before you look at contracts where the couple buying the baby get to tell the woman what to eat, whether she can have sex with her husband, what pain relief she is allowed in labour, where she has to live during pregnancy..

How dare posters suggest that anyone, gay couples or not, should have a right to use women this way.

Spot on @Lovelyricepudding

@HaveringWavering

Haha I have no doubt! He’s certainly a daddy’s boy in the emotional sense. You should see the two of them now in a nap.

No I absolutely mean it’s physical. It’s a reflex in a way. And it’s literally split second. He continues to wail tantrumentally and increasing volume while I am trying to get my top up or position him. I am not saying a baby would be damaged who didn’t have this. Just that the physical bond surprised me as a first time mother and I do believe is real.

Tbh in these circumstances as I said in an other post is my main concern is with the mother. I don’t think you can consent to this. Especially if you have never had a child before.

It’s a bit like can anyone really consent to a vaginal or a c section birth before hand. You get the statistics but you don’t actually really know what your consenting to before you do it.

I was quite shocked really how intensive the whole giving birth and post partum is. You hear horror stories and everyone says oh it won’t happen to you. And to be fair it didn’t. But that doesn’t mean I came out unscathed. I had quite extensive temporary nerve damage. Thankfully I had good quick treatment for that and seem ok.

Now post partum in discussion with other mums it seems I don’t know anyone unscathed to some degree. I only recently found out that every one I know in DPs immediate and extended family (including those unrelated) has nerve damage of some degree - dead spots, pains etc. Both from natural or c section births.

The mental health and hormone aspect is so real. And it’s fully hormonal. I don’t think gifting the baby away will negate this part of the process.

All I hope is she recovers 100% without a single tiny issue both physically and mentally and that she has joy in seeing this babe with her brother and continues to be happy with the situation. And that if she wants her own child that she is able to and that that too goes smoothly. (And I say the last part because I opted for a maternal request planned c myself and I was explained the small but real risks to future pregnancies and that with each c things get worse in the internals department). Before hand I was like ‘yeah fine’, but now I will be thinking about giving my son a sibling at some point and it is their in the back of my mind somewhere. Will my choice mean I am one of the very few who are unlucky with regard it affecting a future pregnancy.).

Basically it’s a lot. Even typing that is 1% really. I don’t even know if you wrote a dissertation whether you could ever truly explain the last 50% - because part of that are things which may or may not happen in the future.

Well said.

There's the additional risk that if the baby has a health problem or disability, or if the 'commissioning' parents' circumstances change, there's a risk that the baby will be abandoned.

Before I had DD I had no idea that I would end up needing an emergency hysterectomy or I would have died.

Aoife could have had that happen to her. She has no children of her own. How would she have felt seeing the child she carried being brought up by her brother knowing she could not have any of her own?

And before anyone says anything I know it didn't actually happen but it could have. I bet the thought never even crossed her mind. It certainly didn't cross my mind.

As other pps have said it's all about what her brother wanted and because he couldn't have what he wanted he would have been quite prepared for his sister to be in the situation I found myself in. Or more likely it never even crossed his mind it could happen.

As others have said it really is a "me me me" society nowadays.

I think all familial surrogacy involves coercion - starting with expressions of grief that they cannot become parents, minimizing language like 'just carry the child for nine months', suggestion that there is a right to have children that they are unreasonably denied or that women should provide a means to allow infertile women/gay men to have a child. It doesn't even need to come from the family themselves. Society can provide that coercion - they are you sibling/they have a right to have children/fertile women should help them/it is only a small thing/you're fertile and a woman, don't you love them and want to help them?

And, as show on this thread, you are a vicious witch if you don't agree...

I have to agree, given that in my experience most men find it an awful lot more difficult than most women to put other people's needs before their own (as every other post on MN illustrates). And that is paramount with a child.

And yes, how on earth have we got to a point where the 'right' of a male couple to fulfill a biologically impossible desire is seen as more important than the needs and rights of a mother and baby? I'm not even sure where I stand on making all surrogacy illegal but I still find that argument quite disturbing.

This is an interesting book which looks at issues from the child's perspective. Since surrogacy is mostly about serving the needs of entitled adults and the needs of children are routinely ignored.

Them Before Us dispels many prevalent, harmful myths concerning children's rights, such as:

• Kids need only love and safety--moms and dads are optional.
• Love makes a family--biology is irrelevant.
• Marriage is about adults--it has nothing to do with kids.
• Children are resilient and will "get over" divorce.
• Studies show "no difference" in outcomes for kids with same-sex parents.
• Sperm and egg donor kids are fortunate because they are so wanted.
• Surrogacy is a great way to help wannabe parents have a baby.
• Reproductive technologies are just like adoption.”

What difference in outcomes does the author find in children of same-sex couples?

I'm not saying don't read this book, but I am saying, do some research so you understand what you're reading. It's by an American Christian, right wing woman.

Here's one review
lifesavingdivorce.com/reviewthem/