Celebrity surrogacy - find this a bit heartbreaking

[Nowyouwillfeel]

Irish ‘celebrity’ couple with a new baby via surrogacy. The surrogate was one of the couples sister. They have put up pictures and stories all delighted and excited but I just see raw emotion on the mothers face in the second picture and in their stories the baby is clearly rooting for her mothers breast. I have a two month old who always does this and honestly it’s breaking my heart seeing the baby search like that while the dad doesn’t even notice and that she isn’t with her mother. They took the baby home before the mother was discharged and she is nowhere to be seen.

seems so unfair on both baby and the mother who doesn’t have any children of her own.

instagram.com/bprdowling?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Absolutely!
And if course there's never a golden child whose 'needs' are prioritised over everyone else's!
Of course if it's a familial relationship, it's never coercive!! All consenting adults here, M'Lud!

This review of that book is rather illuminating, though probably not for the reasons the reviewer thinks. Do read it in full. Too many gems to list here.

Whatever your views, she did not just carry the baby. The fertilised egg grew inside her fed by her body.
If she had just carried the baby a fully grown baby would have been transplanted inside of her body. She grew the egg into a baby.

@ReneBumsWombats

The author of the review I read doesn't mention that specifically, but she includes this post script, from which I think you can surmise

If I had to choose just one gem from the review, it would probably be this:

Fathers and mothers tend to have different parenting styles, and both are necessary for a child’s emotional flourishing. Fathers tend to reflect the world—they encourage independence, risk-taking, and competition—while mothers tend to reflect the home—they encourage stability, safety, and equity. Some might fault these characterizations for being “stereotypes,” but as the authors note, stereotypes exist for a reason. The fact that they exist across cultures throughout history should indicate to us that they are more than just social constructs.

Bad news for black people and Jews, I guess, but hey, who am I to argue with such sound reasoning.

Iirc a lot of surrogate babies in Ukraine were unable to be collected during lockdown and some spent I think over a year with their birth mother. I can't recall reading if they were subsequently given to the "intended" parents (although in Ukraine the commissioning parents are the legal parents named on the birth certificate) but if they were, I can't imagine the trauma to both mother and baby after a year together. ...but if they weren't, the surrogate would now have a baby that she didn't necessarily plan for or afford....which could also lead to psychological issues.
This year a similar thing has happened because of the war, babies being born in bomb shelters or kept in nurseries because overseas commissioning parents can't safely get into Ukraine. I wonder what happens here, especially as part of the appeal of surrogacy (I think) is having a baby from birth? What happens to uncollected* babies?
*I use the word uncollected but that sounds so cold, as if it was an umbrella someone left on a train, or a click and collect order that someone didn't collect.

Oh, excellent. I feel so justified in only having ever expressed views about domestic things to my kids now. Thank God I'm in a traditional two-parent marriage so they can nonetheless be taught about independence, risk-taking and competition (except the girls, of course).

Fascinating to read the list of countries where surrogacy is banned.

This.

I find this very sad and upsetting for Aoife and the baby. The fact that it was Aoife's first time to give birth means she had absolutely no idea of the uncontrollable emotions that were going to flood her body as soon as that baby was born and in the days and weeks after. I would say she is in a world of emotional pain right now.

As for the baby, she is always going to mourn her mother. She is always going to feel like she wanted a mother and will probably resent the fact that she had to be raised by two dad's through no choice of her own. And knowing that her Aunty Aoife carried her and gave birth to her is only going to make matters more confusing to her. She will always wonder why Aoife can't be her mother regardless of the egg used being a donor egg. Aoife and the baby will be fighting a connection and closeness to one another over the next few years in order to not upset anyone or step on anyone's toes (the two dad's).

There is also the complicated fact that Aoife is in fact the babies mother in the eyes of the law and can take custody of the baby right now if she wants too, although I am sure that would never happen.

I just find the whole situation so sad. If gay men want a baby then adopt. It is biologically not possible for two men to have a child together so they have no absolute right to it. The fact that these men have money is the reason it was viable to them, the same as Mark Feehily and his husband. I know many regular gay couples that could never even consider surrogacy due to the cost.

As a previous poster has said, there has been research that shows that babies who are in the NICU or whose mother is in ICU/can’t hold them for some days may have attachment issues, and cry less because they are used to their most basic need - contact with their mum - met.
It seems obvious to me that this will apply to a baby born to a surrogate, who doesn’t get to spend those essential first days and weeks with their mum.

But the big difference is that, in the first instance, the separation of mum and baby is essential, either for the baby’s health or the mum’s - so the risk of attachment issues and trauma from the separation is the lesser of two evils.
But in the case of surrogacy, that trauma, that separation and its associated risks, are being deliberately inflicted on the baby just so that two adults can fulfil their desire to have a newborn ‘of their own’.

The theory of the fourth trimester is something that I don’t think was around - certainly wasn’t well known - when I had my babies in the 90s, but it makes absolute sense to me.
The baby has spent 9 months inside their mum, and in the later stages of pregnancy will have heard her heartbeat and her voice.
She is their safe haven, the only thing they have ever known, and just being born is a massive change - from the warm, dark, amniotic fluid filled, tightly held world of the womb to a bright, noisy, colder world where they can move their arms and legs in a way which is very unusual for them - because they are no longer curled up inside mum.
We know that this is a shocking change, so we swaddle babies, and mums cuddle them close to themselves, so they can hear mum’s heartbeat, and are reassured by her presence and smell.

The fourth trimester is a period of transition, from the warm, secure world of the womb, to the outside world - and surely it is better for babies if this transition is made as gentle and gradual as possible?
If a baby has to be separated from mum, there are things that can be done to help them - putting things that smell of mum next to them, keeping the NICU as quiet as possible, and reducing the bright lighting if you can.
To me, it seems that surrogacy takes away the single biggest reassurance that a baby should have during the fourth trimester - their mum, and I cannot see how that can be a good thing.

How else can a gay couple have babies if it's suddenly banned (illegal) to have a willing surrogate/donor?

They could consider fostering and adoption, although I know that comes with its own restrictions and difficulties.

But ultimately no one, male or female, straight or gay, is entitled to have a baby I'm afraid.

To add to this, on the subject of the 4th trimester, human babies are born less developed than most mammals. This is because of the size of human brains and heads - any more gestation and we'd never get babies through our hips. An evolutionary tension between being born even more vulnerable and the survival benefits of the pro-social behaviours that come with our bigger brains.

Mothers and fathers come in many shapes and forms. You don’t need to be a biological parent to be a good one and let’s be honest there are plenty of biological parents who are down right crap. Love and nurture is what it’s about regardless of anything else.

@ReneBumsWombats What difference in outcomes does the author find in children of same-sex couples?

There is sound evidence that children exposed to the homosexual lifestyle may be at increased risk for emotional, mental, and even physical harm.

you really should back bold claims like that up with some sort of link to (preferably peer reviewed and replicated) evidence!

And what is that evidence?

I find that very hard to believe.

Surrogacy is banned in most of Europe. It should be banned here too.

There is sound evidence that children exposed to the homosexual lifestyle may be at increased risk for emotional, mental, and even physical harm.

The only way in which this rings true is the fact that many children ‘exposed to a homosexual lifestyle’ as you put it are children who have been adopted by gay couples. And those children sadly have indeed often been exposed to emotional, mental and physical harm - generally by straight birth parents - hence why they were eligible for adoption.

The main arguments I always see in favour of surrogacy are

A) there are plenty of shitty parents who conceive in the normal way

B) the parents REALLY want it.

Neither of these seem like watertight arguments to me.

(Fwiw I'm not sure that "not ideal" is quite the same as "must never happen". But I think that everyone involved should at least acknowledge that it ISN'T an ideal situation for a baby to be born into, and that babies born in this way will likely need extra support)

I think gay men, if adoption isn't suitable, should look for women who want children to co-parent with them. Living between two households isn't ideal, but it strikes me as a better setup for children than surrogacy.

Gay men don't have a right to a child with no mother involved. Similarly, I think children of lesbians should know their fathers.

You realize that those two group are not a homogeneous mass of people right?? That they will all have their own separate thoughts and opinions? My adoption story is mine. It’s completely different than my brothers. His is his. I make no claim to know his thoughts and feelings.

I think it’s unfair to act like all adoptees or all surrogate babies think the same

@lovelyweathertoday what about single women who use donors? Are they also not supposed to have children because they haven’t found a man to be in a relationship with? Or are they the ones who need to tie themselves to a gay couple to share their baby with? Do they just have to be lucky enough to be close friends with a gay couple to the point they feel they’d like to co-parent with them and be tied to them for life? Or should an internet site be set up so women can have babies with gay couples they barely know?

As for the baby, she is always going to mourn her mother

this is complete conjecture. We don’t know how the baby will feel growing up