Celebrity surrogacy - find this a bit heartbreaking

[Nowyouwillfeel]

Irish ‘celebrity’ couple with a new baby via surrogacy. The surrogate was one of the couples sister. They have put up pictures and stories all delighted and excited but I just see raw emotion on the mothers face in the second picture and in their stories the baby is clearly rooting for her mothers breast. I have a two month old who always does this and honestly it’s breaking my heart seeing the baby search like that while the dad doesn’t even notice and that she isn’t with her mother. They took the baby home before the mother was discharged and she is nowhere to be seen.

seems so unfair on both baby and the mother who doesn’t have any children of her own.

instagram.com/bprdowling?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Most forms of infertility treatment does not involve using another woman's womb and rest if her body, potentially putting that woman's health at risk, for 9 months and then removing that baby from its mother immediately after birth?

I have no issue with a couple having ivf, medication based treatment or even donor egg/sperm.

I have an issue with using another woman's body for 9 months and then removing that baby once born to give to another person.

This issue for me has nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation. I feel the same about anyone using surrogacy be them a make gar couple, a female gay couple or a hetrosexual couple.

Actually in this case there is a stronger link as this baby is family.
The child isn’t being ripped away from their mother. The mother will still be present in their lives. I am sure in this case there will be no secret who the babies mother is.

A lot of people act as surrogate for family members.
Are you saying that this shouldn’t happen.

As for the photo that was judged to be baby rooting for the breast.
I saw an awkwardly held baby who was trying to push their face away from the plastic apron

This!!!!

FFS parenthood is NOT a right.
That idea should've died out generations ago when having babies was a way of maintaining worker supply for the fuckin field and mills.

Great post @NotBadConsidering

Did this thread start out in the naughty corner or has it been shunted off there?

A great blog post discussing recent research about the experiences of surrogate mothers in the USA and comparing it to some research done in the UK in the 90's. A very interesting read.

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2022/08/25/commercial-vs-altruistic-old-vs-new-uk-vs-america-a-comparison-in-research-long-read/

Well said

@Muminabun what exactly about my post was "breathtakingly evil"?

Because your justifications are the same as those used to justify child trafficking and wombs for hire operations in developing countries?

Deliberately severing the bond between a child and its mother leading to the child developing attachment issues which will impact the rest of the child's life is pretty evil imo @Ella28_ and you have expressed your support for surrogacy which is what this is.

How do you respond to the ethical dilemmas many have posed on this thread related to surrogacy?

I have a friend who was left doubly incontinent following childbirth and required extensive surgery afterwards over a period of years. Had she been "just a carrier" to use your own vile, Gilead-style phrase, should she have had any recourse or financial compensation from the "commissioning parents" who were buying her baby?

if all involved parties agree

OK that sounds compelling but I'm assuming everyone agrees that consent must always be informed? Is it correct that in this individual case, Aoife had never given birth before? And if so, can anyone explain to me how a woman who has never given birth can give informed consent?

@Floisme and the baby? Can they consent?

Completely agree.

I don't agree with surrogacy or agree that everyone should be able to be a parent.

Sorry havent RTFT
I cant understand the comments that are "meh, the baby has committed and wealthy loving parents, it will be fine"
A lot of people that are adopted have a sense that they need to know their birth mother or their biological family, but not because they havent been loved, wanted or looked after by their adoptive family. With adoption its usually the least worst option for a baby because it is deemed to be at risk with its birth mother. Thats not the same as deliberately planning for a baby to be removed from its mother at birth.

I think there is often a power imbalance with surrogacy - potentially less so within families/altruistic surrogacy - but in almost all cases a wealthy couple/singleton as the intended parent/s and someone not as wealthy as the "carrier". A growing number of celebrities are involved in surrogacy, ...I can't think of any that are involved as the surrogate...I wonder why that is...? (very obviously gay male couples cant be!) Kim Kardashian has several sisters, I wonder why none of them wanted to go through pregnancy on her behalf?

I have to say I am very disappointed about the general attitude to surrogacy in Ireland. Even after all of the articles about babies being stranded during covid and then again during the war in Ukraine 'celebs' like Roseanna Davidson and Dowling and that one from Westlife are fawned over in the Irish press for 'commissioning' a human.

I think Ireland is pushing back against the past of being an extremely Conservative, church run country but in some areas are getting it very wrong. How after the mother and baby homes people can't see that the buying of babies, the using of women as vessels to get what you want is wrong is beyond me. Women and children are not commodities, it doesn't matter if you are a woman or a man, gay or straight it's still wrong.

This is so ridiculous. Gay men aren't "banned" from having a baby, they are UNABLE to without the use of a woman's body to which they are not entitled. No amount of politicking changes the biological facts.

This isn't about gay vs straight. Lesbian couples can quite easily have babies without invasive use of a mans body and inflicting trauma on a newborn so no one is arguing against that. What we are saying is that a couple who can't gestate by themselves (be they gay or straight) don't have an automatic "right" to a baby which supersedes the baby's interests and commodifies women's bodies. I know you'd like us all to just be homophobic so you don't have to engage with the actual arguments but it's simply not the case.

Completely agree @InTheResistance

As someone who works with newborn (and children in general) who has worked with babies from surrogate mothers (and who happens to be gay) I am not necessarily in favor of surrogacy, I don’t believe that in a current world that is already overpopulated and that already offers other options to have children, people should be entitled to a newborn baby or a biological child.

That aside, I looked after a child who was born from a surrogate mother from both egg and sperm donor, the surrogate was an acquaintance of the family who wanted to experience pregnancy but not have a child, they were separated at birth (by choice of both parties) and I can honestly say that the surrogate mother (who has stayed in touch and saw the child a few time) felt no bond or attachement whatsoever to the kid, she in fact feels extremely awkward in his presence (and the presence of kids in general) and still very vehemently doesn’t want a child, as for the child honestly I was there a few of the times they met (both as newborn and older) and he really didn’t have an interest in her and definitely didn’t recognize her as anything more than an acquaintance to the family.

Though it’s interesting to think about who is this kid’s mother in this scenario, and if whether a baby would be most sensitive to the egg donor (his bio mom), the surrogate, or the mom who has been looking after him since birth. In his head and heart I can honestly say his mom is the mother who’s raised him. The family has been able to find siblings from the same sperm donor and he is going to school with two of them, so he definitely is being raised in full knowledge of his story and still with ties to the people who did partake in his creation.

Do I worry a little bit about an eventual identity crisis? Yes, possibly. Do I think he currently has any trauma based on his story? No. I think ultimately he is better off with the family who wanted him (which is the one raising him) than the people who participated in his creation but didn’t actually want nor have any emotional bond to him (whether the egg/sperm donor or surrogate.)

Gay men have been having babies in partnership with their lesbian friends via DIY inseminations for decades and decades. Gay people are (rightfully) able to apply to adopt, just as straight people can (same suitability criteria applies to all).

Gay men have also successfully adopted children via family fostering leading to adoption or become fathers via long term fostering (there is a regular mumsnetter who immediately springs to mind who is a fantastic father by any standards anyone can realistically assess through an online forum, I shan’t name him because that feels like an overstep but if he’s reading this I’m sure he will recognise himself)

so no, surrogacy isn’t justifiable for gay male parents because it’s ‘their only option’.

And it’s utter bollox to say that opposing surrogacy (for everyone) is motivated by homophobia.

If a baby is conceived with donor sperm and a donated egg, there's no genetic connection between the 'commissioning' parents and the baby at all. That's just buying a baby and circumventing adoption screening, isn't it?

I’d say so, yes.

IIRC I think it’s illegal here? One ‘commissioning parent’ must supply gametes or a UK clinic can’t do it.

not that that stops wealthy parents going abroad for it.

Surrogacy is a complicated matter and the ethics of it a contentious topic which we're not going to iron out in this thread. I absolutely do not support child trafficking. This situation is not that. All parties involved have agreed and the baby is with its biological dad. Whether aoife was coerced at all (which I would vehemently disagree with) there is no way of knowing so we can only go by what we see on face value here. I see two dads and an aunt who will love and care for this baby. Yes, there could be emotional trauma in the future but there also may not be. We can agree to disagree and that's fine. Thanks for your response.