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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How significant is this report that claims the public feels police officers are "more interested in being woke than solving crimes"?

1000 replies

JellySaurus · 31/08/2022 11:48

Home Secretary should reform failing police forces - think tank https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-627323366^

Very pleased to see this statement, and the BBC reporting it, but is it going to make a difference?

How significant is this report that claims the public feels police officers are "more interested in being woke than solving crimes"?
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14
FoundDoris · 08/09/2022 22:33

omg it finally posted! sorry it was long.

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:34

So if I point out to my bosses that the term is gender reassignment and not gender identity....

Does that actually get anybody anywhere?

Yes it does because there is no such thing as a nebulous gender identity protected in Law, nor is it defined in any way. It can mean anything to anybody on any given day or hour and can change hour to hour or day to day.

Plus there are apparently over 100 different genders, which again change with the wind and get added to.

It also opens the door to self-id which, as I said, is NOT Law in the UK.

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 22:36

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:34

So if I point out to my bosses that the term is gender reassignment and not gender identity....

Does that actually get anybody anywhere?

Yes it does because there is no such thing as a nebulous gender identity protected in Law, nor is it defined in any way. It can mean anything to anybody on any given day or hour and can change hour to hour or day to day.

Plus there are apparently over 100 different genders, which again change with the wind and get added to.

It also opens the door to self-id which, as I said, is NOT Law in the UK.

Well I will add that o my question to legal services then . Can't hurt . I do t expect much from them in that but - I do think the Harry millar ruling should impact what we do . As I said - bear with me .

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 22:39

Right.

My lady boss died today soooo g to raise a glass to her Madge and watch some tv .

Thank you for accepting my apology and please can we continue to discuss the issues .

I will update you when I have asked those questions of our legal services.

🥃 x

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:48

No problem, @stillvicarinatutu .

The gender reassignment bit in the Equality Act is a bit of a dogs dinner to be honest, it is frequently quoted as saying that it means that once someone has declared this then they have carte blanche to use the spaces, services, etc., of the opposite sex - that is NOT true. The comparator is with people of their own sex class regarding discrimination, plus allowing them to do so is likely to impact on others with protected characteristics such as sex or religion or disability. The only people who could are those who possess a GRC and even then they can be barred provided it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

The GRC is, however, treated as if it is some kind of State secret.

Be warned the more you find out the more you are likely to have your mind blown.

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:50

One weird question - do you now have to re swear your allegiance to the King? Or does it just carry over as it were?

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:54

You've said you'd be happy to answer questions about police patrolling of demonstrations, protests, etc., I might well fire some at you tomorrow @stillvicarinatutu if you are up for it.

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 23:03

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:54

You've said you'd be happy to answer questions about police patrolling of demonstrations, protests, etc., I might well fire some at you tomorrow @stillvicarinatutu if you are up for it.

Yes of course . I've policed plenty.
But let's promise not to fall out eh? 😊

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 23:07

VestofAbsurdity · 08/09/2022 22:50

One weird question - do you now have to re swear your allegiance to the King? Or does it just carry over as it were?

You know what ? I ac don't know ! Our queen has been there for so long - we swear to serve the crown so I'm thinking probably not - I guess we just serve whoever the crown is , and once we are sworn in that's probably it . I am a little sad and I'm not actually a royalist but I did shed a tear tonight.

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 23:42

I am truly sorry if I came across as an arse before.

I am dreadfully hormonal- in the throes of menopause. I do get terribly emotional.

Anyway I'm very glad if I can effect any change for the Better with a few well posed questions to our legal bods.

VestofAbsurdity · 09/09/2022 00:54

stillvicarinatutu · 08/09/2022 23:03

Yes of course . I've policed plenty.
But let's promise not to fall out eh? 😊

Oh agreed, I wasn't planning on falling out just a few general questions!

Just a heads-up warning MNHQ and those outside of MN who monitor this Board like hawks don't like the word cult when talking about this - our speech on here is 'policed' and we have extra guidelines to adhere to which you may fall foul of without knowing why.

I'm pretty certain that despite our former issues on this thread I am absolutely on the same page as most of the posters here . I don't want a male in a dress insisting I search him - that said we do have to do cursory Pat downs and I've had a bloke get a hard on before now .....hazard of the job ....

You shouldn't have to do this and your Federation should damn well stand up for you and not allow it. Also, there is the other side where a male police officer who identifies as a woman could search a woman, not on but unfortunately the direction of travel with this ideology.

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 01:15

Thanks for heads up. I won't use the c word !

Yeah fire away with any questions on policing demonstrations - but I can only answer as I've found and policed them here where I am .

The role of police in any demo is simply keep the peace . We can't get involved no matter how inflammatory. So we just stand there like lemons and if we see offences on either side we have to intervene. Policing without fear or favour . It's a thing we can't take sides at protests. It's very passive for us - ! It's always really difficult- because clearly at edl marches when they're shouting we have to let them - freedom of expression- and same for the anti fascist movement . We have police liaison officers with lovely blue vests on who go talk to the crowds and try to engage , get a feel for how things are going . But yes absolutely ask away - I will be honest . . Is very difficult to stay impartial at times and if outnumbered- we have to ask is it worth us getting our heads kicked in for a principal or so we retreat....we are often outnumbered at these things .
It's always a judgment call. We can't let the two sides fight - and if that happens there won't be much discretion shown . Anyone from either side will be carried off to a waiting van - simply because in a melee you can't be choosy .

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 01:22

I wonder what % of trans people actually are police officers.

I've never ever worked with any . Is there any way of finding this out ? It might be a case of worrying about what could happen even if it hasn't if you see what I mean ? With the best will in the world - it would be a very stoic individual who joined the police if they were a man identifying as a woman and vice versa ..... there is a fairly disproportionate balance between gay women and gay men in this job for whatever reason. Maybe because it's seen as predominantly a male dominated environment? That's an interesting point - but there are way more gay women than gay men in the police . I've never ever come across a trans cop - not to say it couldn't happen.

SongAtTwiighlight · 09/09/2022 01:29

stillvicarinatutu

I'm glad that you've realised what women here are saying.

But there's something seriously wrong with police training and police ongoing professional training, if it takes a 24-page thread on Mumsnet for you, as an individual police officer, to get the point that the police have been mislead as to actual UK law, and are being used as flying monkeys against women.

And your latest post about policing demos, really doesn't cut it, when we've seen the Bloko Haram, aka the Black Pampers, all masked and hooded and dressed up in paramilitary-style tight black clothing, and sporting erections when they are threatening ordinary women in a public space. And police standing by doing nothing.

You are not being impartial, despite your attempted justifications. In these situations, you are giving your backing to the aggressors.

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 01:42

SongAtTwiighlight · 09/09/2022 01:29

stillvicarinatutu

I'm glad that you've realised what women here are saying.

But there's something seriously wrong with police training and police ongoing professional training, if it takes a 24-page thread on Mumsnet for you, as an individual police officer, to get the point that the police have been mislead as to actual UK law, and are being used as flying monkeys against women.

And your latest post about policing demos, really doesn't cut it, when we've seen the Bloko Haram, aka the Black Pampers, all masked and hooded and dressed up in paramilitary-style tight black clothing, and sporting erections when they are threatening ordinary women in a public space. And police standing by doing nothing.

You are not being impartial, despite your attempted justifications. In these situations, you are giving your backing to the aggressors.

I've no idea who that group of individuals are? Where was this ?
The problem is having a hard on isnt in itself an offence - however shit it is we couldn't take someone to custody and when they ask why the offence is - having a hard on wouldn't cut it to get them detained. Yep - that may well be shit - but we do have to act within the parameter of law . Much as I'd love to say different.

Protests are just a horrible nightmare no win for police . Even if we agreed with one side we c t show it . That would get us in a whole world of pain .

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 01:46

I think I might have led a rather sheltered police life .

I'm listening though. I might not be able to wave a magic wand but there are some things I can ask and drill into .

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 02:07

It's worth noting that probably half those policing a protest like that will be women officers.

If trouble is expected then there will be a psu somewhere in a van ready to join the normal uniformed police.
Psu = riot police . Obviously at any protest we would rather let people shout to their hearts content without fighting with people.
The right to peaceful protest is a right under human rights law - even if we think they're batshit crazies . Please don't blame the police . It's a very difficult position to be out in . It's very difficult to remain impartial- but the police have to do just that . It's not an option. We must stay neutral. Deal with only offences committed by either side - and offences are pretty set in stone . Heckling , masking up , being a total knob - sadly not offences we could arrest for - I truly hope you can understand this . It's really hard to stand there and do nothing but unless an offence (by definition in law) is committed- we can't just start loading idiots into a van . If only we could !
I'm sorry if that's not an answer you want - ita often really difficult for us as individuals too .

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 02:10

All I can do right now is question the protected characteristics and the harry millar case ruling because those things are not open to interpretation.

stillvicarinatutu · 09/09/2022 02:21

This is our sworn affidavit to the crown . Seems kind of relevant today . RIP Elizabeth....
It's not that easy ....

I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."

NecessaryScene · 09/09/2022 07:37

I'm going to repeat others' thanks for listening and taking this seriously, stillvicarinatutu.

Harry Miller brought up your oath in his recent Triggernometry interview, highlighting his concern about the "human rights" bit.

Francis: Harry, how have we come to this point? How have we come to this point where people are literally being arrested for memes? How have we descended to this?

Harry: I don't know. I think part of it stems from, I think it was the 2002 Police Act changed the oath of attestation that every police, every bobby, swears to the Queen.

Now, prior to 2002 you'd swear to the Queen to keep her peace, keep the Queen's peace and to uphold the law without fear or favour.

In 2002 there was a subtle change, so it's "upholding the Queen's peace, upholding the law, and human rights". It's like, hold on a minute, that sounds good, but why do we need to have this addition of "and human rights" in the oath? What's wrong with simply "the law"? Because if there's a human right that - if the human right is within the law then we don't need to say "and human rights"; and if the human rights are outside of the law then by definition it's contested, and it's therefore political.

So we've given the police a virtual obligation to listen to those human rights organisations who have the most influence, who are shouting the loudest, and for them then to adopt the policy as though it were law, and uphold it as though it were law of those human rights organisations.

One of those organisations is of course Stonewall, and Stonewall have been saying for a long time that "trans rights are human rights," that "trans women are women," that gender identity trumps sex, but worse than that, that anybody that disagrees, that anybody that doesn't accept these statements are facts are de facto haters.

ScreamingMeMe · 09/09/2022 10:19

I've put together a list of some of these incidents, for anyone that wants to read further.

Standing for Women meeting in Bristol. Women were followed, drowned out, activists getting right in women's faces and blockading them in a pub. Police did nothing.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4572131-standing-for-women-bristol?page=5

The Jam Jar, Bristol

Agressive TRAs tried to prevent women from meeting. They blocked the stairwell, preventing women from getting to the meeting room, broke in through the fire escape and planned to set off smoke bombs. Police did nothing.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3433667-I-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-I-regret-what-I-did-this-is-why

Harry Miller: arrested for an lymerick

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3827204-Harry-Miller-My-fight-against-the-police

Harry Miller: arrested for obstruction. In this case the police tried to get a man who posted a meme to pay for his own re-education

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4599961-harry-miller-arrested

Jennifer Swayne: arrested for stickers. Police also removed feminist literature from her home.

She was held in cells for hours, and to quote from the thread:

"She is disabled and has a mobility scooter. She has bipolar. They physically arrested her which she says caused a ptsd attack. She wasn't told when her meds arrived. She's taken lithium but the rest are late.

She then had to drive her mobility scooter home at 3:30 am through Newport up a steep hill with no phone which they have. She always has her phone incase the battery fails"

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4461798-Jennifer-Swayne-arrested-for-stickering

Charges against Jennifer have since been dropped:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4528167-Charges-against-Jennifer-Swayne-sticker-woman-dropped

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 10:52

Harry Miller: arrested for obstruction. In this case the police tried to get a man who posted a meme to pay for his own re-education

Reinforcing the inappropriate "protection racket" feel of the whole thing. I found that really chilling. "We could arrest you for your heinous, hateful wrongthink, but bung us a few tenners and agree to be re-educated by Big Brother and we'll forget about it".

thedancingbear · 09/09/2022 10:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 10:52

Harry Miller: arrested for obstruction. In this case the police tried to get a man who posted a meme to pay for his own re-education

Reinforcing the inappropriate "protection racket" feel of the whole thing. I found that really chilling. "We could arrest you for your heinous, hateful wrongthink, but bung us a few tenners and agree to be re-educated by Big Brother and we'll forget about it".

Quite. The re-education courses are often run by ex-coppers. 'Racket' is the perfect word.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 10:56

YY, dancingbear. Gravy train.

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