What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

Trying has a very apt name.

Oh deary me. I thought this thread had gone on a bit. Now I see why.

The cats don't "hate" Clive, Trying dear. They just recognise that a dog that likes "cat things" is still a dog and they have a reasonable expectation that dogs remain excluded from cat only spaces so the cats have safety, privacy and dignity.

Clive can have a scratching post as much as he likes. Crack on Clive. That doesn't mean he should be given the opportunity to show his dick to the cats. Or that any other dog should be given that opportunity as they pretend to be just like Clive actually, yeah.

Nope. Tw and men are both members of the set of 'men'. TW are a subset of men. They are not a separate set.

So what has not been established is any commonality between women and TW which makes them a subset that excludes other members of the set 'men'.

So, what is it?

So... women is the appropriate term?
Yep. No need for any qualifiers.

@Catiette brilliant post, thank you.

If the definition of woman is"believes they are in a specific set that contains natal women and trans women but not men" then I am definitely not a woman.

Calling Clive a dog doesn't mean we hate all dogs.

Again with your complete fake 'I don't know what a dog is' nonsense.

The issue is with men.

Particularly men who keep arguing for other men to have more access to vulnerable women and girls and who pretend they just do not know the difference.

But most women are not women when you are using the term in this way. Clearly it is circular to say that women are women and people who identifies identify as women. It's not about men being the enemy and its obfuscation for you to throw such allegations. It's about your insistence that I have something I common with TW which I don't have uncommon with other men but stubborn refusal to say what that is.

You need to think how you're using language. You are turning woman into a belief system and then assuming that people formerly known as women still think they are women when it has no biological basis. And you're wrong.

I think these threads are so useful for argument points, I'll be trying to use some of these!

Another thing, if a TW is in a relationship with a(nother) man, can you honestly say they are in a heterosexual relationship? If not, why not? Not sure that's relevant at all to this discussion but I just thought of it.

@Catiette Exactly!
The fact is, that 'woman' and 'female' are actually very clear and defined in biological terms. This is used in a legal and practical sense to mean one type of human being. The other of course, being man and male.
The problem is that 'transwoman'' and 'transman' simply cannot be defined. A transwoman can mean a man who has had, for his entire life, an overwhelming sense of being in the wrong body and who wishes to be recognized as a woman and modify his body to appear female. All the way along to a man who realise at the age of 45 that he's not all that special and decides to see what it's like to be a woman and he suddenly gets noticed and treated like a celebrity by his friends so he digs in a declares that women can have a penis! ( Obviously no intention of getting rid of it). Any attempt to grant the first type of transwoman special status is discrimination against literally any other male bodied person who says they are a woman. If one transwoman can enter women's spaces or compete in women's categories, then it effectively becomes unisex because to refuse the right of any man who says they are now a woman is discrimination because there is nothing concrete to define why you should. The same with the 'lesbian' definition - following the same principle, unless this definition is based on biological sex attraction, any male can define themselves as a lesbian if THEY CHOOSE! I'm going to tell a joke which I've heard in a musical context but you can substitute any word you like. How many singers does it take to change a lightbulb? One. They hold the bulb and the room revolves around them! (Apologies to singers).

I agree, its helpful to re hash all this for those newer to the debate. It is also interesting for anyone interested to search the threads, particularly for the ones with Debbie Hayton, TW and well known journalist/speaker, who is a MNetter and has engaged on threads many times very civilly. They're enlightening reading.

And I'm trying to remain patient and polite, but I think in essence while I hate to interrupt this nice intellectual dabble in women's rights I'm just going to pop out and do something purposeful to try and save them. There's Sarah, who'd quite like a rape service please, and those women who'd quite like to be allowed to swim, and the women in prison who'd quite like not to be raped, and the need for those in the HoC and HoL to be fully informed and aware with the evidence that's generally kept behind the warning sign about the leopard in a disused toilet in the basement so that while we're all trying to help people understand the situation to their own satisfaction we don't look up and discover that the political lobby achieved the abolition of sex based rights and female humans are now wholly up shit creek.

No.

It is why most males who say they are women go for the lesbians.

If they went for gay or bisexual men, it is like saying they are gay themselves [because most males are in fact straight, and want females].

If they go for straight men, the straight men are not willing to be in relationships with other men [as they are straight].

If they go for straight women, or bisexual women, they are admitting that they are in fact males.

So many want lesbians, because this is 'proof' that they pass and are accepted as women. And it is why lesbians [who incidentally, don't want to be in relatonships with straight males] are particularly targetted and those that refuse to bow down are thrown out of Pride [for example Cardiff a few days ago].

It is all part of obscufation and confusion that is aimed at making sure that males are still able to have sex with women.

@Trying20 Just thought of the commonality between women and transwomen - we're human beings. If you can define anything else which is common between every woman and transwoman which isn't also common between every woman and man, you might persuade me.

Saying that there’s absolutely no commonality between women and trans women (as upthread) is just illlogical. Of course there is

So why are you refusing to tell us what it is?

What commonality is there between males who say they are women, and women that is not present in women who say they are men or men?

From someone who told us he doesn't understand what a woman even is, how are you in a position to state what any commonalities are?

I don’t know why posters are so afraid of acknowledging that there IS a commonality?

It is horribly patronising to assume that I, for example, am in any way afraid of acknowledging a commonality. The pure fact is that there is no commonality other than our humanity.

Please don't mansplain in this way. You have utterly refused to say what the commonality is. You've played word salad nonsense in order to try and fabricate one and now you know about my emotional world. It's not fear I'm feeling right now, it's white hot anger.

Not all cats like scratching posts.

Yet they are still cats.

Saying that there’s absolutely no commonality between women and trans women (as upthread) is just illlogical. Of course there is

Can you explain what I have in common with transwomen but not other men please? What's illogical is you trying to create a category of women that includes men.

You say language changes but a tiny % of men decided to alter 'women' and now 'female' because it's the only way they could shoehorn themselves into a category they don't belong in.

Just think about that for a second. Redefined the language of an entire sex class to reduce women to a feeling in a man's head, without a second thought to how that would affect women.

That is female oppression. They didn't ask. They took, with all their male power and entitlement and you are doing the same. Stop trying to force compliance of accepting men in our category with your absurd metaphors.

The answer is no. They don't want compromise, they want total domination.

There is no way of letting 'some' men in without letting ALL men in because trans now means whatever they choose that minute.
Why do you think they are demanding the complete removal of all legal female rights and protections?

You're using the idea that some woman might have similar likes and interests to some transwomen to argue that you can put transwomen cleanly into a group with all women and exclude all other men.

That is patently nonsense.

They both like scratching posts. That doesn’t suddenly mean Clive is a cat - but there’s a commonality there

Super. So tell us, what is this human equivalent of the scratching post that all women and TW like, but no one outside of those groups do?

Can't wait to hear all about it.

One reason for NOT putting women and men who say they are women into the same 'commonality' bracket is that if a man who says they are a woman receives blood in the case of an accident or surgery from a woman who has ever been pregnant, they are actually at a higher risk of dying than if they received blood from another male.

On the subject of whether our views are extreme - we are not, we are fighting for the exact middle ground. One extreme is gender ideology which says that biological sex is a construct and everyone should live according to their chosen gender - extreme proponents of this resort to threats and violence. The other extreme is shown by the Taliban for whom women's and men's roles and rights are absolutely determined by biological sex. They also resort to threats and violence. The pendulum swings from one extreme to the other. All we are calling for is the exact middle where men and women have equal rights, can choose their own role in life, but where it is necessary, biological sex is recognized to provide dignity and fairness. We are fighting for this with discussion, not threats or violence. @Trying20

So the take from it all that I have got is that @Trying20 believes that a males feelings of being a woman, trump the needs, safety and dignity of women.

He may try and pretend he is considering woman but the comments give it away.

It's the same as the thousands of males on twitter shouting loudly for Trans Rights without giving women a consideration.

It's misogynistic and quite frankly terrifying.

So the take from it all that I have got is that @Trying20 believes that a males feelings of being a woman, trump the needs, safety and dignity of women.

He does think that. He hasn't been unclear about that at all throughout the few days of discussion.

He talked a good game at first, but that is indeed the bottom line, so I for one am not wasting further time on it