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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights don't transpeople have?

775 replies

CrossStichQueen · 29/08/2022 08:46

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

OP posts:
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Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 01/09/2022 01:26

All hinges on this I think so waiting with baited breathe.

SongAtTwiighlight · 01/09/2022 01:26

Women are still adult human females.
Girls are still juvenile human females.

Men are still adult human males.
Boys are still juvenile human males.

Humans cannot change sex.

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 01:26

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Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 01/09/2022 01:27

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You've not done it. You need criteria that include me and a TW and exclude you. You've failed to provide that.

SongAtTwiighlight · 01/09/2022 01:28

I dunno. What's your point, Trying?

SongAtTwiighlight · 01/09/2022 01:31

Humans, there are two sexes. No more, no less. Female, male.

It takes one female and one male to create a new human. No third sexes involved, no "spectrums". One female, one male.

So what the hell is a "cis woman"?!!

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 01:35

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Mumwithsons · 01/09/2022 01:38

@Trying20 I take your apology, if you mean it, don’t call any woman a cis woman again or use it in any way. And if someone else uses it, bring them up on it. It’s offensive to so many women.

RoseslnTheHospital · 01/09/2022 01:40

Jfc. Trans women are a subset of men. They are men who identify as not being men. The rest of the men are still within the containing set of men. Nothing about that puts the group of trans women into the set of women.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 01:40

Feels like everyone on here has different views of how their sex/gender should be referred to

If you are referring to females here then woman/women is fine. We don't need the bullshit prefixes to distinguish ourselves from members of the opposite sex.

'Gender' is regressive sexist stereotype nonsense that most here think is bullshit.

Gender identity ideology is a faith based religion.

I don't have a magic internal feeling of gender. I don't believe in god either.

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 01:45

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Trying20 · 01/09/2022 01:46

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IcakethereforeIam · 01/09/2022 01:47

If a woman is anyone who believes they are an ahf, it seems circular to me because, what do they believe they are? Ahf.

Cool, so what's that then? A woman.

Remind me, and that is?

Do you see?

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 01:50

Yes. Trans women are a subset of biological men. So the fact they they're a subset already creates that line between them and "other men", which is what the poster was asking for

So if they are a subset of men and belong in that category, then there is no logical, factual way they then belong in the category with women is there?

The correct category would be women and transmen.

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 01:56

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Trying20 · 01/09/2022 02:02

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Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 02:02

To help me in the future, what is the appropriate term for non-trans women on here? Just "women"?

The fact that you already referred to women as non transwomen is massively offensive. We are 50% of the population ffs. You are on a site that is majority female users.
You don't refer to us as not men! WE are the fucking default, the small subset of men who call themselves women are not.

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 02:04

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Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/09/2022 02:10

If your category is 'people who identify as a women' then that will probably only include transwomen and a few females who blindly go along with the gender religion.

It would exclude most women because we have zero need to 'identify' as one.

To identify as = I know I'm not one but I wish I was.

Trying20 · 01/09/2022 02:11

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Trying20 · 01/09/2022 02:23

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Datun · 01/09/2022 03:50

Jesus. All this waffle and 'explanation' just to create yet another category of women and 'men who demand use of their spaces'.

Again.

Trying20, you probably don't realise it, but this 'category definition' attempt has been done to death by people who simply won't take no for an answer. It happens regularly on here, weekly in fact.

We've had the category defined as 'women and, (variously) - those who use female pronouns, had surgery, has longevity, has passing privilege, age of transition, the presence of gender dysphoria, vulnerability, and those who can shout the loudest.

The criteria of who is included in the category of women will obviously vary depending on the person demanding inclusion. (And they all disagree with each other.)

'Those who believe they're women', is a new one tho.

And probably not very inclusive as no adult human male, of or denoting the sex who produces sperm, actually believes they're adult human females of or denoting the sex who bears eggs.

They wouldn't be trans if they did.

So, ironically being trans would instantly exclude them from your category.

OldCrone · 01/09/2022 06:58

There's an obvious metaphor here, and all I'm saying is we're sitting here arguing about whether or not there's a potential "grouping" for the cats AND Clive. I could go on forever trying to define what determines a cat, and exactly why Clive wants to be a cat, and why Clive enjoys the scratching post. But that's actually not the point - the point is that there is a commonality between the cats and Clive.

What I'm seeing on here is an absolute refusal to accept that. The cats have turned Clive into the enemy; they really hate Clive.

Why "hate"? Just because the cats don't believe Clive is a cat doesn't mean they hate him. You said earlier that you refused to have sex with a transman. Was that because of hate?

What attributes do you share with a transman that you don't share with other women?

Wellies54 · 01/09/2022 07:17

I came to the conclusion a while ago that simplicity is the answer and in this debate, adopted the phrase 'call a spade a spade' in order to sort out any dilemma I had over how to balance the needs of women and transwomen. All these categories and talking about dogs who think they're cats or whatever, is just a mind game which obscures the point.
I used to believe the idea that there were some men who really were women inside! There are not! There is no 'female brain trapped in a man's body' It is also clearer when you realise that there is no definition of 'transwoman'. Is it wearing 'women's clothes '? - you are reducing biological sex to the clothes someone wears. Is it 'behaving in a feminine way?' - are non feminine women not women? Is it 'wanting to be a woman?' - I can't be a cat just because I want to. Is it (the best one in my opinion!) 'feeling like a woman' I haven't a clue what it feels like, I just am! As soon as you realise that transwomen are men who for a multitude of reasons cope with life by/ enjoy role playing their idea of being a woman it is so simple. I will be exactly as kind and respectful to them as I would be to anyone else. I will judge them on their behaviour and they absolutely have the right to dress and modify their body as they please. However - their fantasy does not have to be indulged by me or any other woman. If men and women are separated for biological reasons e.g. sport or toilets, then reality trump's their fantasy. I will say it one last time - there is absolutely no magical, miraculous transformation between male and female, you are one or the other, and the fact that a large part of society actually or vaguely thinks there is, doesn't make it true!@Trying20 Sorry trying - I just can't resist having one last go at persuading you!

Catiette · 01/09/2022 07:38

Wow - I expected fast-moving, but...! Now I find I can't resist engaging when I've really got little time to. But thanks to everyone, especially Trying, for engaging with my question in such detail.

Perhaps inevitably, the pages since I asked it evolved into an argument about the definition of woman. Perhaps 20 years ago - maybe even 5 - this term was, effectively, uncontested: it was universally accepted to mean "adult human female". Recently, the definition has been problematised: as the unifying feature of the original class the noun "woman" described was biology, thus excluding all men, proponents of the new class argue for the replacement of biology with gender in order to include some men. This shift requires the introduction of a series of sub-classes to accommodate those who belonged within the original group, for example, "cis".

I find it interesting that the debate's remained largely semantic, as opposed to addressing the real-world implications of this change, which is what I wanted to encourage in my original question (the quite genuine increase in relative risk to lesbians on a dating app hasn't yet been addressed, for example). This semantic debate will become circuitous, as it has, because the truth of the matter is that we have two groups who both feel invalidated or negated by the retention of the first definition (offensive to many transwomen) or the introduction of the second -including the associated use of prefixes such as "cis" as the need for these in itself is an acknowledgement of the primacy of gender and relative irrelevance of biology in the revised definition (problematic for many women). How do we negotiate this? Simply defining words and offering hypothetical subsets and Venns just leads to circuitous discussion.

For me, it has to come back to the real world applications of the word "woman" - its impact on actual lives (ditto, "lesbian"). I do feel this is something you, in particular, are not addressing, Trying. I'd be interested to know what you think about the following.

Your well-intended question, "To help me in the future, what is the appropriate term for non-trans women on here?" to me lies at the heart of the issue. It shows that women have, in perhaps a decade, lost the ability to describe themselves as a political class with unique rights. And they only recently gained this right (and by recently, I mean, in some instances, the last few decades or so): think of property laws, bank accounts, marital rape - all of these relating to the simple recognition of woman as an authentic human being in her own right as opposed to defined in relation to - and as the chattel of - her husband. Can you see how attempts to redefine woman, a word key to the current legal protections of and recognition of an oppressed group, may terrify and infuriate, members of that group, Trying?

If "terrify" and "infuriate" seem disproportionate, then consider the real-world effects of this recent redefinition of women - real-world effects that others have referred to in this thread. Rape crisis centres (a recent service, hard-won) are calling single-sex care and psychological trauma bigotry. Hospitals are being instructed to reject a distressed patient's fear of a male body on the ward as bigotry - even in the aftermath of rape by said male in one instance. There's currently earnest debate among politicians about the validity of female sporting categories - sports that were forbidden to women perhaps a hundred years ago, then existed for a precious few decades for the sole purpose of identifying the strongest, most skilful female bodies, being accessed by male bodies whose inclusion would eradicate their original purpose. Medical research and systems which have neglected women's bodies for generations is being corrupted by the inclusion of this new category of women. There are examples of all of these. And they aren't niche - they're being embedded into the fabric of our society as I type. Because of - enabled by - the redefinition for which you argue.

We can argue all we want about sets and subsets, but is this realistic or even fair if we acknowledge that the argument itself is, by very definition, in its real-world consequences, an argument for diluting the hard-won rights of an oppressed group. This isn't what you want, or believe, but it is what's happening. As long as this isn't being recognised (and if you yourself don't really seem to, if I'm honest, even as someone who's engaging to the degree you are, and debate is being shut down as bigotted, then what hope of open recognition on a larger population scale?!) isn't there an argument for stepping away from semantic utopias in which all distinctions are established and rights protected to fight against the very real degradation of women's rights that arguments such as yours, for these ideals, are, I'm afraid, legitimising?

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