Lesbians not welcome at Gay Pride

[ZombieMumEB]

This is horrifying. Women (lesbians) told by police they are going to be removed because abuse is being hurled at these women.

Police do nothing about the person shouting the abuse.

twitter.com/GetTheLOutUK/status/1563490240912044033

Agreed. I used to think that posters like Herach were annoying because they just derail and deliberately misrepresent and generally don't make sense. But actually, for any onlookers, it just shows up the ridiculous 'arguments' they are claiming for their cause. It is evidence of the lack of critical thinking embedded in gender ideology. More sunlight I guess.

Agree with the above.

I constantly reflect upon what I believe, in an attempt to make sure I haven't missed something or misunderstood a situation. Posters like Hearach help with this, as if these are the best arguments against my position I have nothing to be concerned about.
Cheers Hearach.

Posters like Hearach help with this, as if these are the best arguments against my position I have nothing to be concerned about.

There really is a sense of disconnection that I find with posters who deliberately misrepresent quotes and statements. However, in this sense you are correct. If all they can do is twist and deflect without evidence or often even coherence, it is just a great example of how poor the arguments they present are.

I find that it is often cathartic to simply keep on analysing the posts so the dissonance isn't screaming in my own head.

I really wish we'd get posters with a better standard of argument. Been asking for that for years; nobody's ever yet turned up to offer sensible responses to women's questions/points.

Just coming back to this as I was on my phone at the time.

This type of post really is very typical of the twisting I have come to expect.

A poll where most respondents are straight is not representative of the views of the LGBT community.

So the fuck what? My post was in regards to the clearly false claim of:

'you should know at this point that to be GC is to be a very small minority in the community'

Hearache has pivoted from telling us that those holding the beliefs that sex is immutable and that the rights and needs of female's should be prioritised over another group in instances where it is important to recognise sex over gender are 'very small minority' after the statistics of the opinions of the general UK population show that in fact, it is the MAJORITY.

So pivoted from

'you should know at this point that to be GC is to be a very small minority in the community'

to

'A poll where most respondents are straight is not representative of the views of the LGBT community.'

Not even remotely relevant to the post.

Just for once, own your dishonest posts Hearache.

There is simply no coherency in most of your posts lately and you are now getting regularly deleted.

What is clear, is that you cannot accept in your world that people believe that sex cannot be changed and that the rights of females should be prioritised over another group in instances where it is important to recognise sex over gender are the majority.

All that pivoting must have made Hearach dizzy!

Well, that and the deletions!

Perhaps brainwashing renders someone impervious to dizziness, regardless of the extent of pivoting, reaching, or backtracking….

Genuinely, when I started looking into this I believed I was missing something or people were misinterpreting things. My first posts are probably floating around somewhere (many namechanges ago! ) asking for evidence, data, etc.

I actually can't quite remember when it dawned on me that this is all there is. There's no missing piece that makes it all make sense. People are just very much wedded to sexism and are staggeringly unwilling to even look at this, let alone question it, to tease out anything they sense might be problematic and see if they sit somewhere not on the extreme end of the spectrum.

I actually can't quite remember when it dawned on me that this is all there is. There's no missing piece that makes it all make sense.

Helen Joyce reported the same feeling/realisation when she was researching her book.

This BBC Radio 4 interview was a complete revelation to me. It's The Spark with Helen Lewis.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001219p

The interviewee, Julia Galef, is a psychologist who's developed the idea of the scout mindset. Scout not being a lad in shorts and a woggle, but a scout who is sent out to map unknown terrain, explore and return with information on which decisions are based. The scout makes notes in pencil because there's always more to be learned and a change of perspective/ direction may lead to a change in understanding and opinion. In Scout mind, if someone comes up with a better argument than you, you listen and learn and recalibrate your position.

JG mentions her fiancé, whom she got to know when he was criticised on SM for saying something that some women felt was misogynistic. Instead of doubling down he listened, thought about it and explained why he didn't think what he'd said was misogynistic. Then someone came up with a better argument, he listened and then publicly announced that the better argument had prevailed and that his statement was misogynistic and he was sorry and had learned something.

I suspect that quite a few of us on here have a Scout mindset. I see lots of women like Laughing Priest asking what they're missing, expecting a cogent response from TRAs and their allies and stunned that there isn't one.

I find it helpful to understand that many (possibly most) people don't think like Laughing Priest and me. Don't know if you saw the programme presented by Dr Hannah Fry with seven anti-vaxxers, none of whom were open to rational debate:

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jul/20/unvaccinated-review-the-most-infuriating-tv-show-of-the-year-so-far

It's a demonstration of a how a fixed mindset that is largely closed to rational discussion and statistical/ scientific data works. Some of the behaviour exhibited is classic TRA behaviour: shouting and attacks when presented with rational material before fleeing in a highly emotional state. This is what we're up against. People who've taken a position often on a purely emotional level, and who can't/ won't consider any evidence that might undermine that position. Not because they're being difficult but because that's the way they think.

@pattihews , that's a great insight - thanks!

I always add a silent 'yet' in my head because there is still the chance that new evidence or better arguments will turn up. It has been quite some time, though ....

I actually can't quite remember when it dawned on me that this is all there is. There's no missing piece that makes it all make sense.

Yes, that. I very much remember that moment.

That it doesn't matter how long you listen or search the evidence in the belief that good faith and logic is going to be in there somewhere, it must be - you are never going to find it. It doesn't exist.

This is why I think questions are their kryptonite.

In a previous job I occasionally ran into people who I believe would be described as 'delusional' if they were ever diagnosed by a medical professional. There was one bloke who thought his neighbour had brought xray machinery home from the airport where he worked. The neighbour was using this to torment him at night when he was sleeping. When I, truthfully, told him I'd been through the neighbour's house, there was no machinery there, he told me it was under the wallpaper!

I'm starting to think delusional disorders may also be on a spectrum. People can find it almost physically painful to give them up their 'delusions' or treasured beliefs. The mental gymnastics they perpetrate to retain them are extraordinary to witness, but also sometimes frightening or desperately sad.

I suppose, somewhere on reddit, there's a tra writing the same thing about MN FWR

Questions and logic ARE Kryptonite to them.
There is no answer to the question "What is a woman" apart from the logical science based answer, the same answer it has been since human life evolved.

That's why watching people try to squirm out of, around, under and over these simple questions without ever actually answering them is very satisfying.

Deflect, avoid, give circular definitions, get irate, flounce off.

It's all very predictable.

Why do men's rights trump those of women?
What is a woman?
How does one live "as" a woman?
How can a man "feel" like a woman when he has no point of reference and has never been one?

Questions that are never answered .

It’s about social identity though isn’t it? To change their view would get them kicked out of their group and would lose them their sense of identity as being a member of that group. That’s distressing. No wonder they get so emotionally disregulated when faced with questions they can’t answer.

For the last point, ‘how can one feel like a woman’. There may be an explanation for this. Humans learn how to live in human society partly through instinct and partly learnt behavior. Because of the toll childbirth and rearing take out n women, in most societies ( or all) men and women have performed different roles. If you need to know you are male or female to know which adult behavior to copy, you probably do need to understand you are make or female. It may be that humans do have an innate sense of whether they are make or female, or born to develop this. And for some people, this goes wrong and they are born with a sense they are the other sex. This doesn’t mean they are the other sex, just there is a miscommunication.

obviously I just made that up, but I think it is at least theoretically possible there is a biological cause to why some people have sex dysphoria.

"obviously I just made that up, but I think it is at least theoretically possible there is a biological cause to why some people have sex dysphoria."

But IMO if that was the case, they would just know that they "don't feel like a (typical) man".
It wouldn't necessarily follow that they then "felt like a woman" because they can never know what that is.
I'm not saying I disagree with you and I'm aware that I am derailing the thread slightly so I'll leave it there.

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

Earache, If you are so sure that it's such a minority view then how do you explain these replies on an entirely different website with most of its users in an entirely different country?

www.datalounge.com/thread/31499389-uk-lesbians-removed-from-pride-event-for-criticizing-gender-ideology

www.datalounge.com/thread/31531943-why-it%E2%80%99s-time-to-take-the-l-out-of-lgbt

www.datalounge.com/thread/29236901-gay-man-attacked-for-supporting-lgb-alliance

We can never know how another person feels the way that you know yourself. For all they know every single other man feels exactly the same but deal with it differently, give it no thought, or whatever.

But you are your body and a tw, as a man, is likely to have more in common, with any other man than their imagination's best idea of what they think a woman is.

You're right about the usefulness of @hearach15 to lurkers and newbies but the thing that really impresses me is the superhuman patience of those who reply - for hours sometimes - to all their bullshit. It would bore/annoy me to sobs.

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

I can only imagine this as essentially "hallucinating" that you have a vagina or womb or something. Maybe like a phantom limb. Is this what you mean?

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

What brain bit would that be? There have been decades of research trying to find this brain bit and as far as I'm aware it's still no been discovered.