There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma. Lane 4. Denied a woman a place in the final. May well deny a woman a medal. Will definitely push women down a place regardless.

The awful irony is Mboma needs to win to demonstrate advantage and allow World Athletics to bring in a ban, but doing so will deny a woman success today 😡.

I’m not sure about this. First, I don’t think people who are chromosomally male should be completing in womens athletics. I think this is a no-brainer for reasons set out elsewhere.

mboma grew up in an impoverished village in northern Namibia. Their dad left the family when they were young and their mum died in childbirth when they were 13, leaving Mboma to provide for two younger siblings. Athletics will have presumably been the means for ensuring the family had food and shelter.

i think, here, it is possible to hold a view on the broad principle, whilst recognising the implications that that principle has for the individual athletes.

It’s easy for us with first world lifestyles to high handedly say ‘of course I’d pack it in’ (and I expect, given mbomas background, go and took the fields for less than subsistence wages) But is that really the decision each of us would make - or realistically should be expected to make - in exactly the same situation (Mboma is 19 btw)? Personally I don’t think we should be so quick to judge

as I say, I think, here, we can be clear on the principle of the thing, whilst acknowledging the nuance involved in the individual athletes’ moral decisions

Namibian Athletics have a lot to answer for.

Their needs do not outweigh the principles of fairness in sport.

There are plenty of needy people in the world. They don't get to take the place of women.

I don’t think structural economic issues in Namibia are women athlete’s problem to solve. Do you?

I wonder how many similarly talented young Namibian athletes who have the misfortune to be actual women could tell a similar story of bereavement, poverty and family expectations. Quite a few I imagine.

Sadly, because the chances of them managing to win on the international circuit against other women is very small, they won’t have been scouted and supported to compete and win lucrative contracts.

This! Nicely said, viques.

No, I don’t. I don’t think I’ve said that

but, in mboma’s place, I’d do a lot more than entering a running race I wasn’t qualified for to ensure my family had food and shelter.

as I say, I agree in principle. But the sticking the boot into a 19 year old African kid, with the specific circumstances I’ve outlined, makes me a bit queasy

No one is "sticking the boot in", just demanding fair competition. If fair competition means that Christine Mboma's game is up, so be it.

And I’m agreeing with you

but posters are saying that they would behave differently from mboma in exactly the same circumstances. It’s a moral judgement about that individual - a poor, black, African teenager with siblings to support - that they don’t need to make their case. And I don’t believe them

I'm with you. I don't think the current rules are fair, but I don't judge anyone for perfectly legally using those current rules to their advantage.

Mboma's team mate - Beatrice Masilingi - deprived another woman of a spot. I wonder how many women they actually have in the women's squad.

Tell me, Bear, have you some reason to assume that Namibia's Mboma and Masilingi didn't displace Namibian women with equally unfortunate histories from reaching the Games?

I get the feeling you're trying to go for turning it into a White Western Women versus Black Teenager with Male Chromosomes thing, but I think you've forgotten that women exist in Namibia too.

These athletes are taking opportunities away from women in their own country too. It should be acknowledged that they're doing this with the support of sporting institutions that would rather train them than women (Namibia didn't have to select any of these individuals...) but they're not only having an impact on western women.

It’s the sporting institutions that choose to scout for and preferentially train people with DSDs over girls and women that I have a real problem with. I do think the athletes affected have been exploited in various ways.

they still shouldn’t be running in women’s events. They should never have been in this situation.

Exactly. As if there aren't any poor Namibian girls.

Werkwuha Getachew of Ethiopia just won the women's 3,000m steeplechase in the Diamond League meeting in Monaco.

Getachew took silver in the World Champs a few weeks ago in their first season at the event. Getachew used to run the 800m...

and congratulations to Lizzie Bird who ran a new British record in third place

It must be so incredibly demoralising at the moment to be a female elite athlete

Here is Getachew depriving a woman of victory in the Monaco Diamond League.
So so sick of this.

Historically, there have been white DSD athletes (Mary / Mark Weston) and I have read that Katharine Merry has spoken about white athletes that have quietly retired “for personal reasons” but I haven’t tracked these down.

Diamond League - Lausanne 26.08.22
women's 3,00m

1 BDI NIYONSABA Francine 8:26.80 MR
2 USA MONSON Alicia 8:26.81 PB
3 KEN CHEBET Beatrice 8:27.14
4 NED HASSAN Sifan 8:28.28 SB
5 KEN KIPKEMBOI Margaret Chelimo 8:29.05 SB
6 USA CRANNY Elise 8:29.95 PB
7 GBR MUIR Laura 8:30.53 PB
8 KAZ KIPKIRUI Caroline Chepkoech 8:34.65 SB
9 ETH WORKU Fantu 8:35.55 SB
10 ETH FEYSA Hawi 8:38.48 PB
11 AUS HULL Jessica 8:41.52
12 GER KLOSTERHALFEN Konstanze 8:45.36
13 ETH EMBAYE Axumawit 8:45.54
14 USA HENES Elly
...

Diamond league prize money
1st $10,000
2nd $6,000
3rd $3,500
4th $2,000
5th $1,250
6th $1,000
7th $750
8th $500

formatting went a bit odd there...

... anyway, it is a matter of public record that Niyonsaba is DSD

Christina Mbola, Caster Semenya and Beatrice Masilingi were all observed and recorded female at birth and have grown up as girls, I assume because they have female external genitalia. They had no idea they had XY chromosomes until they became athletes. They are not transwomen. I am really uncomfortable about further stigmatising people who have a diagnosis of DSD by insisting they take drugs to reduce testosterone in order to compete in the sex class they have in good faith believed themselves to be all their lives.

Maybe read the thread.

I am really uncomfortable about further stigmatising people who have a diagnosis of DSD by insisting they take drugs to reduce testosterone in order to compete in the sex class they have in good faith believed themselves to be all their lives.

I think it is naive to think that anyone who has read about these athletes, the testing they have been through, thinks that they thought they were still females when they started puberty, were scouted by particular athletics scouts and had to start doing a battery of tests. Semenya seemed to have been going to school as a boy for most of their life as an example.

They are male. They know they are male. They are adults and have choices to make.

Why do you believe people with differences of sex development are unable to make ethical decisions knowing they have an advantage? I mean, if people around them are not telling them the whole truth, yes there is a case.

But otherwise, there are athletes who found out and started competing as males. Why do these particular athletes not do that, or be excused from making a decision to respect female athletes?

I think many of us agree they shouldn't have to take testosterone as they shouldn't be allowed to run in the female category under any circumstances. Many of them have known they are male for a long time (quite possibly since puberty as those three athletes have a DSD which means they experience an almost normal male puberty) and yet they continue to run in the wrong sex class.