There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma. Lane 4. Denied a woman a place in the final. May well deny a woman a medal. Will definitely push women down a place regardless.

The awful irony is Mboma needs to win to demonstrate advantage and allow World Athletics to bring in a ban, but doing so will deny a woman success today 😡.

I changed my opinion entirely based on a very similar thread during the Olympics last year. Before that I believed that it was probably a case of white people trying to hold Black athletes back.

Mboma's rise to fame on the world stage has been very rapid. This was reported only just over a year ago (my bold & italics):

LUSAKA, April 16, 2021 - In the Zambian city of Lusaka, 17-year-old Christine Mboma (born in 2003) won the All-Comers 400m race at the National Heroes Stadium in a new World Junior Record time of 49.24 seconds, breaking the previous 30 years old World Record 49.42 by the German athlete Grit Breuer from 1991 Wolrd Championships in Tokyo.

Running in Lane 1, and perhaps missing the sound of the gun, Mboma sat for an unusually long time in the blocks. When she noticed the other runners had already taken a step out of the blocks, she reacted to the start. She had many catch-ups to play up, but she steamed down the back straight to make up for the big head start she had given the rest of the field. Catching the field by around 220 meters. […]

The Namibian teenager Mboma took on her rival Beatrice Masilingi, who had defeated her in the 400m at the AGN League 5 national youth games the year before. In what was a very competitive field, the young sprinter took charge, and coming off the final curve with a huge advantage, with Beatrice finishing second place in 49.53, not too far behind. Masilingi is another talent (born in 2003). And both now are preparing for the World Junior Championships in Kenya, later in the Tokyo Olympic Games.

Last Saturday, two American athletes, Shamier Little and Quanera Hayes set the world's fastest times this year of 49,91 and 49,92 seconds respectively in Florida, but yesterday the two Namibians Mboma and Masilingi exceeded that with their performances in Lusaka meeting.

Masilingi is of course another DSD athlete. Iirc, Mboma didn't learn to use starting-blocks until a very late stage,, and actually didn’t notice the race had begun in this instance, yet the result was as reported. Mboma crushed the world record.

None of this is OK.

I obviously meant Paralympic Gold, damn autocorrect.

So, in summary, massive spike in performance in teen years, aka a male puberty

something I don't quite understand about these rules - they only apply to this particular type of XY etc individual, so you know for definite that all the athletes who decided to move away from middle distance to sprints or long distance fit into this category... but all the athletes in question had the option to take T blockers instead and stay running middle distance... so were there any XY athletes who choose the other option, namely taking T blockers? if so, would this be publicised?

I believe Semenya did for a while, but had unpleasant physical side effects and their times dropped, so they stopped. I don't think should be encouraging males to lower their testosterone - their body produces it for a reason - they just need to stop trying to compete in women's events.

I changed my opinion entirely based on a very similar thread during the Olympics last year. Before that I believed that it was probably a case of white people trying to hold Black athletes back

Actually it's black athletes holding other black athletes back. Look at the 800m podium in Oregon. Mu, Hodgkinson and Moraa (who won gold yesterday evening). Two Black athletes. In Rio, three athletes with DSD won the 800m medals. They would have pushed all three Oregon podium athletes out of the medals. If Semenya had competed last night in the 800m with no limitations, they would have probably won gold and pushed Mary Moraa down

Lynsey Sharp did a PhD on this subject and was vilified for shedding "white tears" after the Rio Olympics. It's not about race, it's about fairness for women. All women.

Was it Favour Ofili?

I follow a running channel on YouTube and she has been having a stellar competition with Abby Steiner in the NCAA this year.

To put that into perspective, why did that record stand for so long?

Because Grit Breuer 100% was doped to the gills during the GDR time where she grew up.

I see that we're on the same page, MrGHardy.

Women's athletics has been mysteriously plagued by records set approx 30 years ago that the female athletes of today just don't seem to be able to break...

Yet we have learned nothing from this.

Just watched the race from yesterday. Mboma looked incredibly nervous on the start line. It can’t be a comfy place to live a lie infront of the TV cameras. Anyone with eyes can see they’re male. I wonder how they reconcile it all? Is the guilt eased by the money they are making? We shall never know.

Yes it was, she is certainly one to watch.

I feel like I'm suspicious of a lot of the athletes now. How can we tell if any race is a women's race if the rules aren't right?

This tweet is a great example of how harmful this forced language and commentary actually is to females.

twitter.com/runthinkwrite/status/1556517989247340546?s=20&t=I773pha80gtrqVfgxeZ2EQ

Nikki_Hiltz tweeted:

I got asked once if my competitors are supportive of my identity.

I’ll just say this.. if everyone was as supportive, empathetic, and kind as the women in US distance running, the world would be a better place for all trans folks

This is a female runner. Placing in female races. That isn't medicalising their body. And now feels that they have to somehow justify their 'gender' when their gender is completely irrelevant in this instance.

This really really needs to stop. The damage of the continual discussion about testosterone is mounting and it is causing distress with female athletes in different ways. These sporting bodies need to stop this once and for all and just draw the line under no males with pubertal advantages and stick with it unless something revolutionary is discovered in the future.

And if all males who have been ever able to process testosterone or not, or are puberty blocked at a horrifically early age, are then also found to have advantages then make swift and evidenced decisions then too.

But enough.

Yeah, I feel a bit sorry for Mboma. It's neither to her credit, nor Semenya's fault, that the former physically 'passes' so much better due to her [so far] much slighter build, but she does also come across as quite shy/nervous, with [whether real or feigned] a little bit less of a booming tone to her voice. Semenya always strikes me as a bit of a troll, refusing to ever wear so much as a stitch of 'traditionally female clothing', always coming across as so macho & boorish, flexing her biceps after a win, etc etc.

I feel sorry for Mboma's history, very sad.
But that empathy doesn't extend to him competing against women when they know that they are DSD XY and so prohibited in running in other races - it is not as if they aren't aware they have a huge advantage. So they know that they are cheating.

Very interesting and informative thread, thanks to all.

My inner pedant won't allow me to let this reference to Monty Python pass uncorrected. The Tarzan sketch is from Beyond The Fringe - the peerless Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

Second attempt -

I feel like I am in an alternate universe even discussing this subject and the fact that it is actually happening. Of course, the obligatory 'I have no judgement in what you in your life as long as no one gets hurt' - the question I have is how the hell can you stand on a podium or collect a medal when you know you've won because of a fundamental physical advantage. Again, there are exceptions for different sports that aren't fundamentally reliant on physicality.

It is totally unfair for women and girls that have put a lot of work and dedication into something to be beaten in that way.

I feel like I am going crazy - does no one ever ask the question why this is happening? We are hell bent on wanting to know about a wide variety of scientific and biological subjects, but this is just 'the way it is'. How can a man know he is a woman if a woman doesn't know what it is to be a woman, because she is one - if that even makes sense.

I Re-iterate - Everyone and anyone has the right to do exactly what they feel is right for them - I hold no judgement in any way(as long as no one is abused, hurt etc..)

apologies for the rant...........!!

Dooderino

Yes Dooderino. The logical conclusion of understanding that these males race to win despite knowing full well they have a pubertal advantage (assuming they have been allowed to have this information and understand it) is that they simply don’t have respect for female athletes.

The constant referral to how these males were brought up has the effect of infantilising them. It absolves them of making a decision to continue when they know they are males.

When you start to realise this, you cannot unsee it. Caster Semenya absolutely knows they are male. Caster Semenya knows if they drop their testosterone levels, they lose to talented female athletes. Even though I have sympathy for Semenya, I feel they have been used by others, I don’t have that much anymore. Not when I realise they know. Semenya knows.

And is fighting lengthy court battles to be allowed to continue.

Why is it only this particular group.of athletes we are expected to 'be kind' to by allowing them to compete in the wrong category? Sport isn't kind. Tens of thousands of teenagers have their hopes of competing internationally denied every year due to circumstances outwith their control. Dreams they will have dedicated their life to. For most they simply won't be good enough, some will be injured, some will have inadequate finance or family support, some may have to take on unexpected caring roles, for some it will be civil unrest. For girls we can also add menstrual difficulties, pregnancy, marriage, cultural demands, prioritising boys for family support and finance. For some girls it will be because a boy has taken their place on the team. Why do certain poster say 'but isn't it sad for that boy?' and ignore all the rest? Why should they be exempt from disappointment?

I do wonder, if these athletes were more competitive in the men's races whether they would suddenly stop identifying as women and race with the men?

I used to feel sorry for Semenya, et al. Then, one day, instead of thinking about how hard it was for them, I asked myself what I would do in Semenya's position. Without a second of hesitation, I knew that I would refuse to compete. Then I had to ask myself why I would have lower moral expectations of these athletes than I did of myself.

Then I had to ask myself why I would have lower moral expectations of these athletes than I did of myself.

I know. When that has been pointed out on this thread, we hear crickets. It is really like people don't understand that just like female athletes have to sometimes make hard decisions about whether to continue to compete or not due to discovering something to do with their health, so to do these males. If they genuinely didn't know, it is a whole other story. And this is not to say no one has sympathy or empathy for them.

However, their needs do not come before female athletes.

And if they are not respectful enough to decide to compete in the male category, then it is not about the competing, it is about the winning. And they, and everyone, need to acknowledge that.

Why does society infantilise these males by removing their responsibility to be fair in competition?