There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma. Lane 4. Denied a woman a place in the final. May well deny a woman a medal. Will definitely push women down a place regardless.

The awful irony is Mboma needs to win to demonstrate advantage and allow World Athletics to bring in a ban, but doing so will deny a woman success today 😡.

It is going to take years to unpick the fucked up misinformation that has been allowed to spread thanks to 'being kind' and 'inclusivity'.

The number of posters that enter onto threads to tone police and to censure people when those posters seem to know nothing about the reality or understanding the science that is already known is crazy.

There was one earlier this week who wrote a section in a thesis based on 'females who were excluded from sport due to high testosterone' who when asked for evidence, posted an article about Mboma. The poster could not list any females specifically at all. And went on to say that they did not care what medical professionals and biologists who specialised in either people with differences in sex development or sport used to categorise people by sex (eg testes for testosterone production) that THEY used whether or not someone had a vulva.

This thesis claim was apparently unquestioned.

And now we have another either willfully or just through not bothering to check facts, conflating sex and gender.

Regardless of what they think they know, they are willing to destroy female's fair competition for inclusion.

Regardless of them knowing any easily provable facts about this topic or not.

It must make people who do this tone policing feel really good. Because it is really very thoughtless.

I agree with you ... I think when you are born with the outward appearance of a female and live your life believing that until a chromosome test suggests something different ....its a slightly different situation to being born obviously male and then 'feeling' that you are female.

Ive probably used all the wrong words but it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

I don't know much about this, but presumably when someone with DSD who is being brought up as female but who is XY gets to teenage years, the lack of periods (and maybe other signs?) would indicate an issue?

Any person who gets periods naturally is female whether or not they get their chromosomes tested surely?

And once they had checks and were found to be XY, the only fair thing to do would be to stop racing in women's races, even if profoundly disappointing to someone who had been erroneously brought up believing they are female.

they are male.

They would also know by now that they are male.

Whether they consider themselves female or not, the discussion is about whether they should be racing. For that purpose, and that purpose only, they are male.

And there are cases in history where people who discover this, do stop competing in the female category.

@ZoeQ90.. Mboma knows that she did not go through female puberty and knows that she has XY chromosomes. This is not in question, Mboma is no longer permitted to race in the 800m event on this basis and the fact of her male level testosterone which she has chosen not to reduce. She may be legally female based on genuinely being wrongly assumed to be female at birth but she is male and has known this for quite some time.

Biology matters - one of the few things me and BJ agree on. If they went through male puberty then they have an advantage in a race where everyone else went through female puberty.

It does not matter if they like wearing dresses & nail varnish or not.

edit... genetically male....

Gender identity has no place in determining the category of sport that one competes in.

I wonder why the governing body for athletics did not immediately follow the swimming decision.

Ive probably used all the wrong words but it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

I agree it isn't in a social sense, but the fact remains that this person is male and shouldn't be competing in the female category.

World Athletics needs to sort itself out on athletes with DSD conditions.
And TRAs need to remember that Hubbard and Thomas and their like are not the same as athletes with DSDs.

it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

Yes. Socially, you are right and it is not as straightforward.

However, there is enough evidence about who experiences male puberty and what those advantages are to also add to the very easily correlated successes of these male athletes that it actually is quite straightforward as to whether they have an advantage that is not available to females or not.

There are for instance some males who are unable to process testosterone and don't experience male puberty. They are actually not limited from competing in female sports. That may change if evidence is showing that there is an advantage. But for now, they are included.

It is only the group who have experienced male puberty that will face future tightening of limitations or outright bans.

Mboma knows darn well they are male. Male puberty! No periods, no female puberty! Cheat.

There is no place in women's sport for men, whether at 100m or the marathon. Time to sort this out!

I agree. I understand that these DSDs exist, and that Mboma almost certainly produces male levels of testosterone and that her body has the capacity to utilise this testosterone in the same way as any other male.

But I don't personally feel the same anger towards these athletes as I do towards regular men who transition and then expect women to step aside for them. It's not fair for these specific DSD athletes to compete against females, but it also doesn't feel fair to vilify them for doing so whilst the rules allow it.

That said, I've been told on here before that scouts deliberately comb schools, villages, junior athletics, actively looking for people they believe to have these particular DSDs. I've never seen any actual evidence of this, but it would change my opinion somewhat.

I do feel sympathy for people who discover they have a DSD at puberty, I was more irritated by the false claim that none of us actually know what sex we are, because we haven't had a chromosome test.

The real mystery is how two athletes with such rare conditions have in recent years been included in the Namibian squad. I mean, what are the odds……..

It's not fair for these specific DSD athletes to compete against females, but it also doesn't feel fair to vilify them for doing so whilst the rules allow it.

That is true to a certain extent. They know by now that they have unfair advantages, they must do or they live in a very curated bubble (which is also possible). If they know they have an unfair advantage and are still competing, as Caster Semenya has been fighting to do, does that make it right? Or is that absolving them of their ability to be fair and I guess, infantilising them.

That said, I've been told on here before that scouts deliberately comb schools, villages, junior athletics, actively looking for people they believe to have these particular DSDs.

I think that you will find there has been involvement of Ekkart Arbeit. Who is a known doper coach, who knows exactly what testosterone does and the advantages those males have in competition with females.

There is not a great deal to be found about it, but his name keeps popping up in conjunction to several of the athletes who are subject to these restrictions.

yep

Those posters do tend to follow the same pattern. It seems to be taken directly from other social media platforms and never actually processed through any critical thinking filter.

She’s not a man, or a trans woman. She was born a woman and identifies as a woman. She just has a DSD (disorder of sex development) which gives her unusually high testosterone levels for a biological female.

I take your point that people born as biological men should not be competing in women’s sports and agree with it. I think this case is a bit more of a grey area however. Similar to Caster Semenya’s case.

@CharlieChalkface My understanding is different from yours. My understanding is that when born they thought she was female but actually the DSD is one that only XY (ie male) people can get.

The gushing from the BBC makes me sick.
Ennis, Lewis and Johnson know exactly who Mboma is . Gutless cowards.

But they are males. So let's keep referring to the science and use the language that makes the regulations clear.

No females are banned because of the regulations that apply to these athletes. None.

Continuing to call them female spreads misinformation and therefore when the World Athletics will finally put full restrictions on them, which they will, the media will be again continuing to spread this misinformation that females were banned due to reporting restrictions. Because at the moment the cherry picking of events they can compete is in ridiculous and unfair for everyone, so changes will be made in the near future.

I read the rules the other day for a different thread. Only XY people can currently be affected by the exclusions. CAIS wouldn't improve performance as no ability to synthesise testosterone.

Yes.. This is true.

And Mboma knows exactly what sex they are and what condition they have. They have continued to race despite knowing they have these advantages.

Continuing to use the words 'female athletes' is incorrect and leads to confusion.