There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma. Lane 4. Denied a woman a place in the final. May well deny a woman a medal. Will definitely push women down a place regardless.

The awful irony is Mboma needs to win to demonstrate advantage and allow World Athletics to bring in a ban, but doing so will deny a woman success today 😡.

@CharlieChalkface ... Mboma is biologically male with male levels of testosterone, with a DSD that does not make her organs obvious externally, not biologically female. The distinction is important. The Court of Arbitrarion of Sport ruling makes essential reading on this topic and is very very clear. Mboma is bound by this ruling and excluded from the 800m on that basis, a race where she was previously an olympic medal winner.

Is it unfair to ask for separate transgender races or is that called excluding?

No, that’s completely wrong. Semenya, for example is male, and went through a male puberty. There’s no need for the quotation marks around the sex; if he’s male he’s male.

Mboma has been injured though and missed the Worlds so she may not be on her best form.

The whole point of this thread is that Mboma isn’t a biological female.

Mboma has a DSD that is exclusively a male disorder. Mboma has benefitted from male puberty with all the physiological advantages that brings and will have levels of T in the male range.

The biological facts are not a grey area.

They still pushed the Indian athlete out of qualifying though. So, whether they win or not. Their inclusion has meant another female from their own country did not get selected, and the Indian athlete has missed her spot in the next round.

The biological facts are not a grey area.

They are certainly not when discussing sport and fairness.

I have to wonder at what’s going on inside the head of anyone who makes this claim.

I was as certain as it’s possible to be of my sex when I started having periods, but any conceivable doubt was removed when I became pregnant and gave birth.

Similarly I really didn’t ever question whether my husband was male, but him fathering my children would also tend to confirm this.

No chromosomal tests needed.

Our children are different; their sex too is unambiguous from observing them, but in their case chromosomal tests before they were born were also done, which, of course matched their phenotype.

But he’s not a biological female. He is an XY male, with testes, who went through male puberty.

@Helleofabore
Yes I agree, a woman has missed out and that is a travesty. In some ways I want Mboma to win in order to highlight the injustice but I was just pointing out that Mboma may not be at full fitness.
So sick of it all.

The Kenyan athlete Imali didn't qualify for their final, and i don't know whether this is a good or bad thing. What a ridiculous position to be in.

These runners, even without the testosterong level testing, are so obviously male beneficients. They are taller, have bigger body masses, different muscle developement, they run like the men, they look like men...... against all the female runners, they are obviously so different.

I understand they have DSD but do they have a penis and testes or a vagina and a womb?

Mboma has no style or technique. Just brute strength.

Seyni finished 4th in the 200m at the Worlds.

How much evidence will they need?

Yes. Mboma is a male human with a DSD. As a result of this, they have male levels of testosterone and have experienced male puberty.

Having the DSD meant that they were incorrectly sexed as female but will have been very well aware that they went through male puberty.

If 1 in 2000 people have a DSD of any kind, it is no coincidence that particular DSDs that only occur in male humans and confer a significant advantage over female humans are so vastly overrepresented in athletics. Anyone would think that there were parties involved who actively sought out people with these conditions.

"5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.

Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).

During puberty, an increase in the levels of male sex hormones leads to the development of some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

Children with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are often raised as girls. Some of these individuals adopt a male gender role in adolescence or early adulthood, while others adopt a female gender role."

They have testes that are producing testosterone and other hormones.

whatever else they have is irrelevant.

I understand they have DSD but do they have a penis and testes or a vagina and a womb?

All DSD athletes under discussion have testes - producing the testosterone that their body has responded to - and no womb.

The whole external penis/vagina area would have been ambiguous at birth, which is what would have led them to being wrongly identified as female in a cursory examination.

In 5-ARD, Semenya's condition, the genitals tend to become more obviously male around puberty. 5-ARD only affects genital development - everything else about a 5-ARD's individual's body is typically male.

For PAIS, there's a general problem responding to testosterone, meaning that the whole body will be less virilised than a typical male, but still virilised.

And it’s not 1 in 2000 - it’s somewhere between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 4500 apparently, with the DSDs that apply in these situations not being at the more common end. They are more common in some communities though. The ones that are appear to be targeted to find athletes.

Somewhere, someone is benefitting from this. It’s not really the athletes who end up subject to such scutiny that are benefitting the most (although semenya is clearly benefitting financially).

Well, that's alright then 🙄

It's the same in Irish women's football
reduxx.info/irish-lgbtq-inclusive-football-team-with-transgender-player-wins-womens-junior-final/

Well that explains that then, I watched the race last night & immediately thought 'that's a bloke' - they shouldn't be allowed to run.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen plenty of women (the old fashioned cunty type) tick all these boxes. I understand that Semenya is not female, but these are not the reasons why.

@SweetSenorita
Of course it's not alright
If Mboma doesn't perform well people will use that to defend Mboma's participation.