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How to square the circle of my trans sceptism and my trans friend?
116

bluegardenflowers · 29/07/2022 21:12

I am totally against trans 'women' in womens spaces, in womens sports, in bastardising the language of pronouns and all the vitriol from some trans men (regardless of what they identify as) dish out. Abusing children with hormone blockers and all that is horrendous.

However I have a male friend, who transitioned a few years ago and who I supported through the tart dressing phase, the boob surgery, the fallout with his ex wife and children, etc. Now 'she' is in a relationship with a woman and has calmed down with the overtly sexual dressing and is back to the nice 'man' but as a woman she always was. I accept her as a person who made a choice, rather that a woman because I believe all genders are just people with male and female traits. She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business. Doesn't bang on about LGBT+ issues and is just a normal person. albeit quite a masculine looking woman.

Do others with this situation feel friendship and understanding of the individual and sympathy for their difficulties, or are they all lumped together as something that shouldn't be accepted lying down?

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glamourousindierockandroll · 29/07/2022 21:19

The way I feel is that I have no quarrel whatsoever with people who experience gender dysphoria and choose to present in a way that is stereotypically associated with the opposite sex.

My quarrel is with predatory men who piggyback on this issue to gain access to women's spaces. The men who would take sporting opportunities away from women. The policy of unquestioning affirmation and medical intervention on growing bodies.

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achillestoes · 29/07/2022 21:23

Sounds fine to me.

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Roseglen84 · 29/07/2022 21:25

I don't think you have to square anything. Your friend is your friend, you can support them while still disagreeing with parts of gender identity ideology.

I have nothing against trans people, however I very much disagree with the ideology. Just like I have friends and acquaintances who hold religious beliefs that I don't align with.

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MarshaMelrose · 29/07/2022 21:31

Surely people can live the life they want as long as they're not breaking the law or hurting anyone? I'd hope if someone I considered a friend transgendered, I would be supportive and embracing because they're still the same person I wanted to have as a friend. What sort of friend what I be if rejected them when they were at their most vulnerable?

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ArcticSkewer · 29/07/2022 21:33

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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namechange7654 · 29/07/2022 21:42

My issue has never ever been with individual people going about their business. Most people, in all walks of life, are basically regular, decent people.

My issue has always been that we can't legislate on the assumption that EVERYONE is basically decent! We need robust laws that don't have glaring great loopholes, ripe for abuse.

You can absolutely have a trans friend, and support trans people having all the exact same rights as anyone else (for example, it should be illegal to fire someone just because they're trans) whilst at the same time understanding that predators do exist, and that as a society we need measures in place to limit their access to children, women, and other vulnerable adults.

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RoseslnTheHospital · 29/07/2022 21:51

I don't think any feminist who is critical of gender ideology would have any issue with an adult going about their life making a choice to present radically differently, but use unisex facilities. They aren't forcing you to agree with an ideology, presumably? And presumably they haven't treated their ex and their children badly? Nor expected women to have to constantly validate their identity?

So crack on, there's nothing to square away here.

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grey12 · 29/07/2022 21:59

There has been trans people your whole life 🤷🏻‍♀️ they've just become disrespectful as a group recently.

I have no qualms with your nice friend 🙂

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Wheresmywoolyjumpers · 29/07/2022 22:09

The way I feel is that I have no quarrel whatsoever with people who experience gender dysphoria and choose to present in a way that is stereotypically associated with the opposite sex.
My quarrel is with predatory men who piggyback on this issue to gain access to women's spaces. The men who would take sporting opportunities away from women. The policy of unquestioning affirmation and medical intervention on growing bodies.


Beautifully put. I feel very sorry for the millions of trans people who are perfectly nice and respectful. It is a shame to lump them in with the extremists and predators.

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EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/07/2022 22:09

Previous discussion on a similar theme but some differences:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4560114-cant-make-this-add-up

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334bu · 29/07/2022 22:14

Nothing to square here.as your friend respects women's boundaries. The fact that they choose to present in a feminine manner is nobody's business but theirs.

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littleburn · 29/07/2022 22:16

I don't think they're a circle to be squared OP. Your friend is your friend - you can have trans friends without having to agree with some or any aspects gender ideology. Many trans people don't agree with gender ideology! Like the previous posters, I have no issue with trans people. I have a huge issue with gender ideology and its proponents, but they're by no means one and the same thing.

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ArcticSkewer · 29/07/2022 22:27

You're not going to get much of a discussion going if posts saying what individuals who don't believe in trans ideology but have trans family members do, get their posts deleted for saying how they deal with it.

You'd think I'd said something like I scream in their faces!

It's my family members/friends choices and not my business, they are all well over the age of consent. I don't agree with them on gender but I agree that they feel the way they do.

Challenging other people's beliefs is counterproductive. I simply accept that is their belief, don't dismiss it out of hand, let them talk, and express sympathy with their position, acknowledging their feelings without agreeing with the reason they feel that way.

I find that works well in these situations.

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DarkDayForPearlClutchingVipers · 29/07/2022 22:29

You do know that there are many trans people who have 'gc' views, OP, don't you?

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SquirrelSoShiny · 29/07/2022 22:29

littleburn · 29/07/2022 22:16

I don't think they're a circle to be squared OP. Your friend is your friend - you can have trans friends without having to agree with some or any aspects gender ideology. Many trans people don't agree with gender ideology! Like the previous posters, I have no issue with trans people. I have a huge issue with gender ideology and its proponents, but they're by no means one and the same thing.

I actually think the aggressive trans lobby have made life so much more difficult for trans people.

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SquirrelSoShiny · 29/07/2022 22:30

And that last post was agreeing with you @littleburn it wasn't very clear!

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SpidersAreShitheads · 30/07/2022 05:13

DarkDayForPearlClutchingVipers · 29/07/2022 22:29

You do know that there are many trans people who have 'gc' views, OP, don't you?

Yes, absolutely this!

There are quite a few fantastic trans women who I follow on Twitter and they're huge champions of women, and understand that they aren't a woman. It would be so easy for them to slip into the TRA camp, it takes a lot for them to stand up to their own community and say "no, you're wrong". I think their voices are so important to add to ours, and I'm grateful for their support of the GC viewpoint.

These lovely trans women are also very protective of their "trans" identity because they feel it defines them, and their life journey. They don't want to be referred to as a "woman", they're insistent that they are a trans woman - emphasis on the "trans". Just like they can't ever truly understand what it is to be a biological woman, I can't ever truly understand what it is to be a trans woman. And both of those things are OK - we can still be allies and support each other wholeheartedly, celebrating our different paths to where we are in life now.

I don't care how someone wants to live their life, identify and dress. That's never been what being GC has been about. It's about erosion of our identity, our voices and our safety. And of course, our rights. GC trans women are an important ally in our battle.

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BlackForestCake · 30/07/2022 08:09

If you had a Christian friend you could be their friend without believing in the virgin birth and the resurrection yourself. No issue here.

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passport123 · 30/07/2022 08:10

glamourousindierockandroll · 29/07/2022 21:19

The way I feel is that I have no quarrel whatsoever with people who experience gender dysphoria and choose to present in a way that is stereotypically associated with the opposite sex.

My quarrel is with predatory men who piggyback on this issue to gain access to women's spaces. The men who would take sporting opportunities away from women. The policy of unquestioning affirmation and medical intervention on growing bodies.

Exactly this, I know several trans people who just get on with their lives. I think they are very badly service by the TRAs.

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Preeeschooler · 30/07/2022 08:15

In all groups, you can find extremists making life more difficult for the ordinary folk, the last thing people should do is tar them all together.

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thirdfiddle · 30/07/2022 09:40

She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business.

Your friend sounds lovely and respectful of women. That takes some independence of mind if she's had any association with the modern trans movement.

I hope she was also respectful of her ex wife and children during the transition phase. That would be important to me in maintaining liking for someone.

I have plenty of friends I don't agree with on some big subjects. It's not even that clear if your friend's beliefs differ - does she believe she is a woman, or someone dealing with gender dysphoria as best they can?

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/07/2022 09:55

I hope the ex-wife and children are OK and were well supported through your friend's transition and that your friend and your friend's supporters treated them well.

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georgarina · 30/07/2022 10:46

Your friend is fine. What's not fine is policy dictating that anyone who says so is a woman and gets full access to women's spaces and opportunities. What's not fine is policing and erasing language around women to cater to men. Etc. Your friend could maybe choose to take a stand against these things.

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JoodyBlue · 30/07/2022 10:49

Like others have said, your friend is not encroaching on your boundaries so nothing to square. People are "funny cups of tea" as my mum would say. Friends see the humanity in each other for the most part regardless of presentation.

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bluegardenflowers · 30/07/2022 11:01

I actually think the aggressive trans lobby have made life so much more difficult for trans people

This is the issue I'm having. It would not have occurred to me before that there were ideology issues, and I would have treated her as no different from my gay friends.
Defined does not push her gender choices in my face (although she did initially show off her new boobs, which I guess would be the same for any woman 😂). We don't even talk about gender, but about her fiancée, home, job etc.
@thirdfiddle. No she's never said she's a woman. She was devastated for her (then) wife and children and initially the wife was also sympathetic (as a man he was so kind, considerate and empathetic and a wonderful husband) but her family really hated him and turned the whole thing toxic trying to get SS involved, saying he was abusing the DC and so on. Just awful, but things are improving slowly and relationships with the kids better. ExW still loves him/her so I know it's been difficult for her.
@georgarina. Dfriend doesn't really comment on trans 'issues' at all one way or the other and I don't bring it up. I think she is treading a bit of a tightrope, so just stays neutral. It could be a friendless existence, I think, if you alienate other trans people and don't fit in with real women because your aren't one.

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