How to square the circle of my trans sceptism and my trans friend?

[bluegardenflowers]

I am totally against trans 'women' in womens spaces, in womens sports, in bastardising the language of pronouns and all the vitriol from some trans men (regardless of what they identify as) dish out. Abusing children with hormone blockers and all that is horrendous.

However I have a male friend, who transitioned a few years ago and who I supported through the tart dressing phase, the boob surgery, the fallout with his ex wife and children, etc. Now 'she' is in a relationship with a woman and has calmed down with the overtly sexual dressing and is back to the nice 'man' but as a woman she always was. I accept her as a person who made a choice, rather that a woman because I believe all genders are just people with male and female traits. She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business. Doesn't bang on about LGBT+ issues and is just a normal person. albeit quite a masculine looking woman.

Do others with this situation feel friendship and understanding of the individual and sympathy for their difficulties, or are they all lumped together as something that shouldn't be accepted lying down?

Absolutely. I think someone who has grown up a man has no conception of the hidden anxiety women grow up with. Having to take care where and when they walk, the ease with which men can assault women without consequence, fear of violent men in there life and not even daring to walk alone in quiet countryside. My DH hasn't a clue when I say these things. Even gay men have a clue because they have often been targeted for abuse, so a normal man putting on a dress doesn't get this. I don't think they realise women are so vulnerable.

Because this is a discussion board, not a 'be kind' problem page, and we're allowed to both hold and state our opinions. Why do you want to silence women's views?

I think that’s absolutely fine. You know the person, you’re able to judge who & what you’re supporting. You’re not compromising your reality-based position by being a friend.

Ultimately we’re all trying to get through our lives - ideally doing as little harm as possible (including to ourselves).

I think some of the most pernicious aspects of the Trans Activist lobby is persuading people that anyone who isn’t 100% onboard with the whole packet is an evil bigot who wants them tortured & dead, & is likely a Nazi to boot.

This is honestly the exact kind of shit that puts women off posting on FWR because of these oddly aggressive posts. I don’t want to silence womens views. I am GC. But I find that so many responses here are aggressive and make odd accusations (such as “silencing women”) if you don’t 100% agree with the most extreme views

Absolutely (although I'm not GC).

ShirleyPhallus:

If you can’t help what was the point of posting, beyond just making a horrible dig at the OP?

You accused the poster who was making a reasonable point (that I and and no one else seems to have had a problem with) of being deliberately horrible with the very strong subtext that she shouldn't have voiced her opinion. You, who apparently hate aggression, have actually written the most aggressive post on this thread...

Is this a reverse?

Lol ok. You do you ✌🏼

This is honestly the exact kind of shit that puts women off posting on FWR because of these oddly aggressive posts.

And this isn't aggressive?

This is honestly the exact kind of shit that puts women off posting on FWR because of these oddly aggressive posts

Leaving aside the many other issues, isn't that why MNHQ ostensibly split FWR into 'Chat' and 'Sex and Gender'. tbh, I've not noticed a substantial uptick in women posting on FWR 'Chat' which was created for a different culture (?) and was supposed to create a forum for different issues where the users hadn't been quite so under siege as FWR has been for so long.

Lol @ShirleyPhallus , your first post on this thread said 'but do find that some of the views here are extreme and transphobic' and then you complain on hostility?

Where's your proof, what extreme and transphobic views have you identified, reported and had removed, on this thread?

It's always the same - come on the tread with 'I'm GC, but y'all extreme transphobes in your echo chamber', get challenged on anything, shout about hostility, flounce. Periodically plop in with irrelevant derails till boredom (?) sets in. I think you're currently in stage 3.

I think @Pluvia expresses my attitude well here:

'He would go into the category of several people I know and quite like, but could never feel close to because of their irrational beliefs. They include all the Christians and people of other faiths who build their lives around their sincere belief that there's a god out there watching over us:the people who sincerely believe in ghosts,:the sincere but deluded anti-vaxxers: the conspiracy theorists: the pagans and the mystic-woo spiritual people — all of them pleasant people in small doses but none of them grounded in reality.'

I know several young people who identify as trans. I genuinely treat them the same way as my most proselytizing-prone religious friends, or those still obsessed by Brexit (on either side) - lovely people, much in common to discuss and share. As long as they are aware some issues are not something we will agree on and accept it politely.

I don't think I need people to think the same way as me to like them and want to be their friend. Not everyone is happy operating that way, and that's something I also accept

Haha, since my post pointing out nothing has been deleted I see the monitors managed to persuade MN that 2 posts are in fact 'extreme transphobia'.

I posit they likely expressed legitimate views within GC 'belief', but were not specifically mentioned in the recent rulings.

Oh well, at least we can talk using euphemisms here, every little helps

Yeah, those posters are pretty transparent - I used to be GC but because you're all big meanies I don't think I am anymore. Or just general policing of how women are supposed to react or feel about issues. It's tiresome.

And in case Pluvia's post is deleted, it related to the condition we are not normally allowed to name, but which is, not uncontroversially, discussed in a book 'The Man who would be queen' by Michael Bailey.

This condition and its manifestations inform a lot of the opinions and attitudes on this board.

There, surely this can't be deleted?

Pluvia
I can imagine having a transwoman on the periphery of my social circle if they use male facilities (changing rooms etc) and respect the differences between them and those of us with XX chromosomes. Knowing that a man has transitioned later in life, leaving a wife and children for a life in heels and mini-skirts (going from what the OP says) would incline me to suspect that this individual was living out their sexual fantasies in RL — which is not something I'd want to be involved with as a non-consenting participant.

This is something that baffles me about the handmaidens that go along with this crap - do they really not understand that it is sexual in nature, that the desire for 'girly mode' is nothing more than a big wankfest?
Would they be equally ok with their friend Dave co-opting them into his foot fetish? How is this any different?

Absolutely, @Roseglen84 I would be less than happy if asked to work alongside a character who spent all day acting as a caricature version of me.

He might be a good friend of someone-or-other. But that wouldn't make my situation any more comfortable.

Looks like it's wins for women everywhere but Mumsnet, doesn't it?

The deletions are so ridiculous. What are the grounds for deletion on this topic these days?
And are they the same for other belief systems?

The same was as I've known plenty of nice people who are religious, but still believe that every organised religion has preformed atrocities and has overall been harmful to humanity.

You don't have to believe the same things as your friends, anyone who insists you follow their believes isn't a friend.

I agree — you don't have to agree with everything your friends think or say. I just can't really ever feel close to someone who has a belief that seems, to me, to impede their critical thinking. This article is about Rev Richard Coles having lunch with Richard Dawkins: Dawkins concludes 'What is difficult arguing with Richard is he is not swayed by factual evidence; it is feeling that matters. Feelings are important, but they don’t tell us what is true.' That's how I feel when I'm with people with sincere but irrational beliefs. If I'm going to really trust someone and feel close, I need them to be grounded in reality. That doesn't mean we agree on everything.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/31/rev-richard-coles-and-richard-dawkins-dine-across-the-divide-evidence-feeling

And that's before we get to the situation of trying to relate to someone who is one thing but presenting as another. I know I really struggle feeling close and comfortable with anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn't seem congruent.