How to square the circle of my trans sceptism and my trans friend?

[bluegardenflowers]

I am totally against trans 'women' in womens spaces, in womens sports, in bastardising the language of pronouns and all the vitriol from some trans men (regardless of what they identify as) dish out. Abusing children with hormone blockers and all that is horrendous.

However I have a male friend, who transitioned a few years ago and who I supported through the tart dressing phase, the boob surgery, the fallout with his ex wife and children, etc. Now 'she' is in a relationship with a woman and has calmed down with the overtly sexual dressing and is back to the nice 'man' but as a woman she always was. I accept her as a person who made a choice, rather that a woman because I believe all genders are just people with male and female traits. She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business. Doesn't bang on about LGBT+ issues and is just a normal person. albeit quite a masculine looking woman.

Do others with this situation feel friendship and understanding of the individual and sympathy for their difficulties, or are they all lumped together as something that shouldn't be accepted lying down?

Sexuality doesn't change just because someone changes their presentation. If your male husband decided to identify as a woman, he's still a man. You're still a woman, so you're still in a heterosexual relationship. Whether you want to have sex with a man who's dressed as a woman and wants you to call him Diana and help him shave his legs is something else entirely.

Same goes for a man invading lesbian-only groups saying that he identifies as a lesbian. He's still male and lesbians are by definition female, so he's just a straight man seeking to have a relationship with a woman. If a lesbian sleeps with him, she becomes a straight woman. It's the very first issue I ever put to Stonewall. LGB is totally about sexuality. TQ+ is straight people playing about with ideas of gender.

I suspect I agree strongly with the spirit of what you're getting at @Pluvia but a quick reminder Bisexual people do exist. I can accept that some people are into it but thinking in terms of the Kinsey scale if you are into sex with a trans person of either persuasion you've got to be somewhere in between super straight and super gay right? However I guess saying his girlfriend is Bi isn't validating enough
What I don't accept is...

1. Pressure from heterosexual men that homosexual women are obliged to have sex with them, consider them as sexual partners. No is a complete sentence and many TW / Heterosexual men are really not very good at hearing the word no and feel entitled to judge whether the reasons you're saying no are good enough. Intruding on lesbian spaces and sexually harassing lesbians would not be behaviour I could tolerate in a friend.
2. TW / Heterosexual men getting a heterosexual woman and then declaring she is a lesbian when she is not now and nor has she ever been sexually attracted to a woman. It's pure gas lighting and shows a complete and utter disregard for her feelings or sexual orientation.

And it would certainly seem that he's been doing one or the other.

Well the gf identified as a lesbian all her life, so I would still say she is a lesbian and not bisexual. She is clearly in love and attracted to the feminine part of Dfriend. The sex side is not something I've ever enquired about.

I don't believe lesbian is an "identity". It simply means a homosexual woman. If you are attracted to both sexes you are bisexual.

It used to be called same-sex attracted. Nice and clear.

Yes.

Last time I used it it was like I said, "Actually that bloke Adolph wasnt' that bad' from the reaction I got. Looks of fear, downcast eyes, people looking like they'd sucked on an overly sour lemon and an answer that corrected me (the woman I described as SSA was re-framed as a cis-queer woman) given in a squeakily high voice.

The way I see it, discrimination and harassment on the grounds of sexual orientation in the way the Equality Act would deal with it mostly happens to people because they are same-sex attracted and people know about it or assume it, not because they are also opposite sex attracted. Happy to be corrected on this but I understand it to be the case.

There are plenty of monogamous bisexual people married to members of the opposite sex (I have several friends who would meet that description), who unless they told anyone or someone found out from their past no one would ever know they were same sex attracted to discriminate against or harass them for it. Bisexuality mainly needs to be protected because of the same-sex element.

So it's important that a term such as lesbian, a woman who is same sex attracted as her sexual orientation, is understood correctly and we don't push for a position where bisexuality is the only moral position and exclusive same sex sexual orientation and pride in it is considered bigoted and loses its fundamental protection in law through being made essentially meaningless, as many trans advocates suggest.

A male person attracted to women is a heterosexual or bisexual male. Not a lesbian.

Looks of fear, downcast eyes, people looking like they'd sucked on an overly sour lemon and an answer that corrected me (the woman I described as SSA was re-framed as a cis-queer woman) given in a squeakily high voice.

Eye roll. Sympathy.

The thing I find really weird is that lesbians and gay men are supposed to feel shame if they don't want to sleep with trans members of the opposite sex, yet the "community" is always banging on about "Pride", which in fact used to mean pride and lack of shame in being same sex attracted.

People on here have said that a lesbian turning down a male is fine but "you don't have to be nasty about it, so why not just say you are not interested without invalidating them as a woman".

Why can't they just state that they are a proud lesbian and they only sleep with women?

People on here have said that a lesbian turning down a male is fine but "you don't have to be nasty about it, so why not just say you are not interested without invalidating them as a woman".

I'd be more scared for my safety and ability to be part of my community than their feelings.

It's quite a clever tactic though because women are often socialised to be nice. I think it's much easier to guilt a woman into having her boundaries trampled on than a man.

It's the same way you get women whose husbands have publicly been unfaithful doing the 'stand by their man' photoshoot. I really can't imagine a man doing similar.

It's just one of the many reasons we still need separate awards for women's achievements. Until society and socialisation changes women need different protections and support than men, whatever gender they identify with.

That is not to say TW don't need protections and support. But their experiences and needs are different and it's not helpful to conflate them. And women should not set aside their needs, aims and protections because others may be vulnerable.

I'd be more scared for my safety and ability to be part of my community than their feelings.

Yes absolutely, I was more thinking of the cognitive dissonance in these people's own position.

It's quite a clever tactic though because women are often socialised to be nice. I think it's much easier to guilt a woman into having her boundaries trampled on than a man.

It's the same way you get women whose husbands have publicly been unfaithful doing the 'stand by their man' photoshoot. I really can't imagine a man doing similar.

Yes. Socially there are few things more contemptible to many men than a cuckold. It's even taken on a wider meaning.

I find it very weird that those who see themselves as the LGBTQIA+ movement embrace and celebrate so many niche attractions and kinks, yet can't seem to find any tolerance for same sex attraction.

As with any other friend, it’s a balance between what you can give each other. What do they give you?

And if they are really offensive to your principles, I’m a bit of a believer of having a wide range of friends and not just echo chambers. It’s good to challenge, but if you feel they have a good heart and enjoy their friendship, why not keep them!