Can't make this add up.

[MVDC]

I've been writing this in my notes for several days because I'm really struggling to get my thoughts straight on this.

I'm finding myself completely tangled up in my own brain here. I've read a LOT on MN about gender critical views and I agree with a great deal of it - the unfairness of trans women in women's sports, the importance of single sex spaces from a safety perspective, the potential for abuse inherent in self-ID, the growing social contagion, the ridiculousness of gender stereotypes, the huge safeguarding risks of early affirmation and transition, etc etc etc, all of this makes total sense to me.

But i find that so hard to parse with the lived experiences of my trans friends. I know a fair number of trans men and women, all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis, and it's undeniable that policy centring GC views would make their lives worse. Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces. Being continually misgendered on various admin systems, the many barriers to medical transition and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives - all of these things mean that my friends are living with a huge burden every day.

I can't get my head round it. Keeping trans people safe comes at the cost of women's safety. But keeping women safe puts trans people at risk. Of course, at the heart of the matter, when you get right down to it, men are the problem, but knowing that doesn't actually give us any solutions! How do we square this circle?

I don't know what I'm expecting to get out of this, because if there was an easy answer we'd have it already, but does anyone else feel this same disconnect? It seems like there's no way to align the common sense of GC views with considerate safeguarding of genuinely trans individuals.

In terms of protecting women's safe spaces, the only answer is to have womens facilities, mens facilities, and a third 'neutral' facility which would be free from trans people to use.

Like most GC people, I am happy to address people respectfully by whatever pronoun they wish to use.

Misgendering is a tricky one, to which there are no easy solutions I'm afraid - for the safety of everyone, the persons' biological sex should be recorded on medical records etc.

Sports is easy - you can only compete in the category relating to your biological sex. Anything else is at best unfair, and at worst downright cheating.

Above post should have read 'free for' not 'free from'

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces.

The problem here is men and toxic masculinity. So many of the world’s problems would be solved without toxic men.

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces.
But allowing men into women's spaces is... Clearly it's MEN who need to sort this one out. Women shouldn't be endlessly expected to pick up the slack because men can't 'be kind'. You say yourself that men are the problem. They can sort this one out.
the many barriers to medical transition There are barriers to medical care for everyone. I knew someone who decided they were trans about 5 years ago. They were put onto testosterone within about 18 months (after a couple of counselling sessions) and in spite of Covid, and all the NHS delays around that, they have now had 'top surgery'. Meanwhile, a friend had to wait so long for a pre-cancerous lesion to be removed that she ended up needing plastic surgery...

I don't know what the answers are, but making things worse for women isn't the solution.

You can't make it add up because you think women are obliged to find a solution to the safety of transwomen if they don't want males in single sex spaces. I note you don't seem concerned about the safety of transmen.

Women have suggested 3rd spaces which would provide privacy, safety and dignity for all but we are told we are transphobic for wanting to maintain our legal right to single sex services and spaces and fairness in sport because it does not validate trans identities.

I have no doubt that life can be very challenging for transpeople and there was a time I very willing to be part of finding solutions to that problem but I'm afraid the assault on women's rights and safeguarding has been too intense that I just do not have the surplus energy to fight yet another battle for a group who are represented by such violent, aggressive and uncompromising activists.

I also know transpeople, they are nothing like the activists and they are appalled at what is done in their name. I share their concerns for the potential backlash.

Third spaces? If trans people put their energy into third spaces rather than demanding access to that of their preferred sex, I don’t know of any woman who would dispute their cause.

Ther a simple solution that protects both women and tans people it's called a 3rd space we have been arguing for this from day 1 however that doesn't validate the trans person's identity and is constantly rejected by them.
Also why should male violence against a subsect of men be the problem of women solve or be shieds for said subsect of men?

Third spaces would perhaps be the utopian ideal, but I don't see how logistically they would work across the board.

all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis

By...? Noticing they're not the opposite sex, or is there more to that? I pretty sure "noticing actual sex" is the bulk of it.

If your whole identity is based on people pretending they can't see something objectively true about you, there's going to be a problem. You can't force people to lie.

"Misgendering" is correctly sexing. It's not a real thing.

We didn't accept gay people by trying to pretend either they or their partners were the opposite sex, (except those covered by the GRA2004), and accuse anyone of not going along with the pretence of "misgendering".

How do we square this circle?

You fundamentally can't base any rights claim on the insistence that the circle is a square. You have to admit that it's a circle, and then deal with any remaining issues.

Despite TRA claims we are not a gendered society. We don't say "men retire to the bar, and women to the lounge" (or whatever) any more, so you don't have to claim to be the opposite sex to go to the other room.

The few remaining sex-specific things are sex-specific for very clear reasons. That's why they remain as such. We've pretty much abolished formal unnecessary sex discrimination.

If anyone "presenting as female" (ie using typically female name and stereotypical female dress) is getting stick in a male-only space - just as in any space - then that obviously needs to be tackled, just as we tackled gay men getting stick from men. Rather than putting them in female spaces and using women as a shield.

'It seems like there's no way to align the common sense of GC views with considerate safeguarding of genuinely trans individuals'

And there is the heart of the issue.

Compared to the days when there were relatively few 'transsexual' people, whose dysphoria was diagnosed and who found some relief via changing the appearance, we now are in a situation where people are trans because they say they are. It's heading towards an access all areas situation for males, however they identify themselves.

Third spaces are surely the way forward?

Making women less safe must be a very tempting option for policy makers/politicians/Governments because it's an easy option for them. Instead of actually tackling the reasons behind male violence/toxicity and working to 'expand the bandwidth' of what it means to be male, far easier to trample on women's rights. Women who have been socially conditioned to 'be kind'. That 'be kind' is being used as a weapon.

Women and women's spaces are being used as a human shield in preference of putting in the work to systematically examine and tackle male toxicity and violence.

What makes Tw unsafe in men's spaces? Is there any evidence that they are subjected to more or worse discriminatory behaviour or violent behaviour than men in general in men's spaces? Have there been any cases reported to the police, of Tw feeling unsafe in men's spaces?

If men do not behave appropriately to other males in men's spaces, why is that women's problem to solve?

Equally, if a person's sense of self is dependent upon others' constant validation, why is it those other peoples' problem to solve?

We can extend trans people the same respect and compassion as we extend to all people, while still not taking responsibility for their emotions, beliefs and desires.

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces

Because men as a collective are not safe to be around. Its interesting that some men only realise this or accept this once they decide to present as a woman.

Being continually misgendered on various admin systems

Which is why admin systems should record biological sex if its necessary. If its not necessary then why should anyone have any markers of their sex on their admin?

What do you friends think about third spaces? Do you feel there is a lot of will amongst the trans community to campaign for third spaces?

I just want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting this is "women's problem to solve", I'm asking how we as a society keep women safe without disadvantaging trans people.

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces.

So, make the male spaces safe or third spaces. It is only 'hard' because some males feel they should be able to access female spaces when sex actually does matter. Who is telling these males that it is acceptable for them to demand access? That also needs to change.

Being continually misgendered on various admin systems

Misgendered or mis-sexed?

the many barriers to medical transition

But what medical transition do they even need these days?

and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives

Their authentic lives as trans people? yes? Not as assuming the sex they identify as for all purposes, even when sex matters.

Is the issue their expectations? Or is the issue society is based on material reality sometimes and some of these issues that you are describing needs that material reality observed and there is a disconnect between what some people have been led to believe will be resolved (ie. that you can really change sex and be exactly like the sex you identify) and what the reality actually is.

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces.

I'm going to want citations on that one. Why wouldn't they be safe? I've heard plenty of transwomen on the GC side say they never have any trouble in men's toilets.

And I've never actually heard of any incidents of transwomen getting in trouble in men's spaces from the TRA side.

You'd think the activists would be incentivised to demonstrate this alleged "danger" in male spaces - but all I ever hear about is them getting stick for trying to use women's spaces.

And then you see signs directed at women telling them to shut up and not challenge men. (Do similar signs actually go up in the men's?)

(And do you really think it's wise for transmen to use male spaces? Why are you looking at this only from the male point of view?)

But even putting trans access to spaces aside, we haven't even made the world safe for women. They make up 51% of the population and its been a long relentless campaign to try and improve global safety for women and girls.

I think Trans people may have to take this one while we carry on trying to keep 51% of the population alive, un-raped, educated, and employed fairly.

We can't square this circle because we are still trying to triangle the circle.

The moment men are allowed in women's spaces they become unsafe for both women and trans women.

How are trans identifying people disadvantaged by recognising their sex?

Hey, I may hate and feel humiliated by my obesity being recognised, because I don't feel obese, but my doctor would be irresponsible not to take it into account in my healthcare.

If transwomen aren't safe in men's spaces perhaps a charity could start campaigning to end this discrimination? They could call it Stonewilly or something. The Harry Potter kids could donate a quid or two.

Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces

Replace transwomen with gay men, disabled men, Rangers supporters in the Celtic loo. I have great sympathy for anyone who doesn't feel safe in what should be a safe space - but the answer is not to make another group experience that lack of feeling safe is it? Using female spaces is not the solution.

‘feeling unsafe in men’s spaces’ …..hmm. That’s the one that is always trotted out as the argument for letting any man who says he is a woman today into women’s spaces.

what about the trans men? Do they feel unsafe in men’s spaces? If so , why?Does anyone ( Male) care?

Why should MTF feel unsafe in men’s spaces, anyway? Is it that men don’t feel that someone presenting as a woman should be in places where men may be in a state of undress? So why should women’s feeling of ‘unsafety’ in a similar position be so hard for MTF to understand?

I have also known some MTF personally, never a FTM ,perhaps that was not a thing before the hormone treatment onslaught. I felt that they didn’t want to be ‘accepted’ in women’s spaces, in the sense of going unnoticed. If they did, they could ‘ pass ‘ more easily by dressing as butch women, or indeed, just a lot of ordinary women, you know: jeans, sweater, flat shoes …..instead there was quite a lot of performative ‘ féminité’ , with frills or sparkly bits. A lot of look at me.

Sorry, this is a bit incoherent. I suppose the whole situation does my head in, as a decorator once said to me about trompe l’œil. What I really mean is, we all have a right to express ourselves, but your right is not more important than mine.

How are trans identifying people disadvantaged by recognising their sex?

Indeed. I would argue they're being disadvantaged now by acquiring the reputation of being of people who want to deny their sex and are willing to crush anything or anyone getting in the way of that denial.

I've heard a fair few trans people talk about the "Transphobia 2.0" they now get where people are afraid to interact with them because they assume that being trans they must be some sort of crazed sex-denying ideologue just itching to jump on anyone letting slip the slightest indication that they can tell their sex.

In the past people were far more relaxed around them, because everyone knew that everyone else knew what sex they really were, and it wasn't an issue.

Honestly - some times there will be conflict. Does the NHS prioritise 'top surgery' for a TW or a mastectomy for a breast cancer? Do we prioritise a small number of trans children and allow them to change with the opposite sex for PE so they are validated, or do we safeguard the majority and provide a separate changing facility. Do we allow freedom of speech if that includes being homophobic?

We should minimise conflict where possible, and where that isn't possible aim that the majority of those affected remain safe, and try to reduce the risk to the minority.