How to square the circle of my trans sceptism and my trans friend?

[bluegardenflowers]

I am totally against trans 'women' in womens spaces, in womens sports, in bastardising the language of pronouns and all the vitriol from some trans men (regardless of what they identify as) dish out. Abusing children with hormone blockers and all that is horrendous.

However I have a male friend, who transitioned a few years ago and who I supported through the tart dressing phase, the boob surgery, the fallout with his ex wife and children, etc. Now 'she' is in a relationship with a woman and has calmed down with the overtly sexual dressing and is back to the nice 'man' but as a woman she always was. I accept her as a person who made a choice, rather that a woman because I believe all genders are just people with male and female traits. She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business. Doesn't bang on about LGBT+ issues and is just a normal person. albeit quite a masculine looking woman.

Do others with this situation feel friendship and understanding of the individual and sympathy for their difficulties, or are they all lumped together as something that shouldn't be accepted lying down?

Your trans friend uses the facilities appropriate for their sex. That's pretty much all I'm asking people like your friend to do. Respect my right to have facilities without the opposite sex in them. Your friend demonstrates just how easy it actually is, to be respectful of the rights of others whilst taking their own route through life.
I don't hate individual trans people as a rule, but I do hold utter contempt for some notable exceptions. I hate gender ideology, the authoritarian attempt to seize control of everyone else's life by trans rights / mens rights activists, and the capitulation by many many organisations who fucking knew better than to fold, but did and left women and children in the swamp.

She doesn't use womens toilets, or changing rooms, and just discretely goes about her business.

Good..

In terms of friendship - trans or not, how I felt about them would be hugely dependent on how they treated their ex and children (and honestly, the fact that SS were called and his ex’s family, who presumably know a lot more than you do were so concerned, does ring alarm bells for me).

I wouldn’t be participating in any male friends fetish, in terms of allowing them to show off their boob job, just like I wouldn’t allow a male friend to show me the results of a penis enlargement op.

Just to clarify, it wasn't the exW who called SS but her family. Until her family, who are very right wing Christian type of people, got involved things were amicable and parenting shared. Kids happy, friends happy and ExW coming to terms (although she of course, took it very hard), until the family got involved. SS investigated and were happy and closed the case. It doesnt take much to contact SS and they are duty bound to investigate.

DFriend is getting on much better with her exwife, and is relaxing into the kind considerate person pre transitioning, she was before.

As to showing me her boobs, she didn't expose herself, just indicated the cleavage and the curves, which I probably would do if I was ever inclined to a boob job.

it wasn't the exW who called SS but her family. Until her family, who are very right wing Christian type of people

Are you in the UK or the US, OP? I know right wing Christian has become a trope but it's potentially more indicative of parts of the US than the UK. E.g., the Anglican church has what, in the UK context, would be described as liberationist, left-wing policies: Christians Against Poverty are likewise.

Even in the US, there are metropolitan cities where the major Christian faiths are influenced by the Central/South American liberation philosophies. Cities like New York, iirc, 1 in 4 Christians there are African by heritage and that influences their politics.

I have friends with very different beliefs and politics to me, what matters is whether I feel they are basically a decent person.

A friend insisting I had to have the same beliefs would be an ex-friend (even if I did have the same beliefs, coercing others is not on, discussing and explaining why they had that belief would be fine). If they were harassing others they would also be an ex-friend, as would a thief. And definitely someone forcing me (or anyone else) to participate in their sexual fetish or scaring me.

It is totally up to you what boundaries you put in place.

Of course. It is the, on the spectrum, TRAs who are poisoning the well.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus In the UK. the exW family have just been incredibly nasty, and turned a fairly civilised divorce into a nightmare. They are middle class so called christians who hate gays and don't understand the emotional side of transism.

Your friend keeps out of women's spaces and goes about their own business. Absolutely fine.
I'd probably not discuss the issues with them

All the trans identifying people I know apart from one mainly just get on with life and use the toilet appropriate to their sex. The one who doesn't fell out with me over literally nothing, so I don't feel I have to square anything. They all live up to the stereotypes of trans people that are the reasons gender identity theory concerns me, and

(pressed send too soon) though I certainly don't share my thoughts with them, knowing them does nothing but confirm my fears about the harm that TRA lobbying causes.

If they dont use womens toilets when out and about, do they use the mens? Genuine question - do they find it difficult or has it been fine? What about changing rooms in shops or if they wanted to take part in sports/swimming?

I absolutely support trans people on an individual basis but find the changes at a societal level (ie trans women in sport, changed to language etc) to be the problem

I think it’s also worth remembering that sometimes MN and Twitter operate in an echo chamber which isn’t representative of the real world. I’m very GC but do find that some of the views here are extreme and transphobic

Can't help you I'm afraid. I would never continue a friendship with a man who thinks womanhood is a pervy costume or a set of stereotypes and I certainly wouldn't support one who pursued his perversions to the extent of having a "fallout" with his wife and children.

Maybe you're not quite the feminist you think you are?

If you can’t help what was the point of posting, beyond just making a horrible dig at the OP?

A few things for you to consider...

How would you feel if your friend read your post (the dressing like a tart phase)?

Why do you think the vast majority of transwomen are any different to your friend - doing their best to quietly go about their life.

I would think your friend would lead you to understand what trans people go through, rather than needing to square a circle.

What 'extreme' or 'transphobic' views do you see here?

OP asked whether or not readers felt sympathy and understanding towards male friends who have transitioned.

WhiskerPatrol gave an honest answer, as requested.

Questioning OP's feminism, in the context, looks like fair criticism to me, not a 'horrible dig'. The TRA tendency to describe any criticism or difference of opinion as 'hate' or other hyperbolic terms makes debate very difficult.

I have no issue with trans people who are not looking to trample over my rights or erase my existence.

That poster literally said “I can’t help you”

But suggesting that I might be a TRA because I don’t 100% agree with some of the views on here is both laughable and absolutely proves my point

To point out the fundamental inconsistency of claiming to support women's sex-based rights while accepting self-ID, exemplified by the OP saying that she doesn't agree with "bastardising the language of pronouns" and then going on to refer to her trans-identified male friend as "she".

Hope that helps! If not, try reading it again more slowly. 😉

I'm still wondering about the ex-wife and whether (despite her conveniently 'middle-class' and 'right wing' 'Christian', 'anti-gay family') she is gaining emotional support and proper financial support for the children (all of whom seem like awfully good sports in this as wives and children are expected to be).

I’ve had to process this myself with a colleague who is a transwoman.

I try to make a clear distinction between the person in front of me - a human being whom I like - and gender extremist/transactivist ideology.

Here’s an analogy:

I’m an atheist and pretty deeply sceptical and critical of the depredations of the Christian church, Islamic fundamentalism, and strict Judaism. But I have dear friends who are Christian, Muslim and Jewish.

Or:
I know that men and men’s actions cause the majority of crime - 98% of sexual crime, for example.

But I love individual men.

My Dfriend has always supported her family financially, and continues to support her children. I can't be angry with someone who went through years of emotional turmoil (even though I really don't understand it) just as I feel a deep sympathy for their exwife. However couples break up all the time for a variety of reasons and partners get hurt.

I feel I have to call him, her now as she looks more feminine than masculine, but I am just trying to see the person not the gender or the sex.

She either uses toilets which are mixed or the disabled. Not ideal but she feels uncomfortable in either sex toilets. Still has a male sized bladder I suspect.

I've unfortunately had a big argument with a gay male friend tonight and been called 'anti trans' and a bigot for saying I don't want a man in female toilets and changing rooms. He thinks my concern for safety and anger at erosion of women's rights is 'fascist' and reports of abuse are hysteria. He then bizarrely started to trying to equate my beliefs that some trans women (men) are sexual predators with racism. I'm done with this fucking bullshit.

Sorry to hear that Popsicle. Sadly, sexism and misogyny is so pervasive that a lot of people find it hard to actually see - it's like fish trying to see water.

Your friend clearly has not the first clue about women's lives.