Money Box this afternoon at 3pm on Radio 4

[nauticant]

Anyone fancy Money Box this afternoon at 3pm on Radio 4?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019b90

Felicity Hannah and a panel of experts talk money when you are transgender or non-binary.

jane fae – Director – TransActual

Cleo Madeleine – Spokesperson – Gendered Intelligence

I think people confuse criticism of an ideology and ideas with criticism of people. It's not the same thing.

I can criticise the neo-liberal industrial-war-machine without hating Liz Truss, for example.

I can criticise how the male gaze is internalised and pressurises women to consider their worth in terms of their appearance and leads to excessive plastic surgery and possibly risky life decisions without pointing any fingers at women who are victims of this ideology.

I can criticise how the simplistic idea that masculinity and femininity are inherent traits leads anyone who is gender non-conforming to think they are obliged to pick an invented 'non gender' to make it clear that they don't subscribe to arbitrary sex stereotypes without making any aspersions at all about anyone's child who may identify as non-binary, who is probably young, experiencing various pressures from various directions both internal and external and in any case, at the end of the day just has a different opinion and life experience from myself.

I don’t hate non binary people. I will use the name and pronouns someone asks me to use and I won’t upset or offend them by telling them I don’t believe non-binary is a thing, any more than I would offend a religious co-worker or acquaintance by telling them I didn’t believe the tenets of their religion were a thing. But you can’t make people believe, try as you might. And you can’t stop them expressing those views on social media any more than you can stop people saying “I don’t believe in sky fairies telling me what to do with my body” every time there’s a discussion on abortion. I notice people don’t come on those threads half so often wringing their hands about how hateful it all is to those with religious faith.

I also feel that if you want to direct your disappointment anywhere, it might be better to think about whether it really helps trans and NB people for someone to go on the radio and claim that very common human experiences are somehow uniquely suffered by trans people and by implication are evidence of discrimination. Living alone and having to pay the whole standing charge for utilities, for example. Or getting the bank to respect how you want to be called. There are plenty of threads on here about the fact it is impossible to get to get a bank to put a woman first on a mortgage application when it’s based on her salary, or even when her name is alphabetically first, or to get a statement addressed to Mr and Dr.

eyeroll we are all non binary.

People can believe whatever they want. They can't make me believe it. And they can't undermine my protected characteristic because I don't believe it.

This. I will be polite. I will use pronouns in person. It does not mean I believe in gender woo any more than I believe in God or that the earth is flat.

So you can explain non binary to us?
Genuine question.

Well it's because they're earning more money because they are men and can spend more on girly things because they are women? Pink power, but with lipsticks and stilettos and shiny dresses.

Hold on, I live alone and pay all my bills. Including the whole internet bill! Does this mean I am non binary now??

💯

Assuming you wear trousers sometimes, dresses occasionally, and the other "gendered" stuff then yeah, you are now non binary. I think

Yes. Wasn’t there a guy who’s just come out as NB. Typical beard, totally male presenting but we are supposed to believe he is not a male for some weird reason only he knows. I think so that as a white male he can claim membership of the ‘most oppressed group ever’.

Yay! I’m off to claim my trans privilege now! You must all listen to my every word and never contradict my opinions no wonder how batshit crazy or it’s literal genocide and I’ll cry.

To get back to the programme, most of it was about identifying oneself, changing names & honorifics/titles. This can be irritating - I've changed my name twice and it can be a pain to produce documents to get the changes made. But if it needs to be done, it needs to be done. I'm sure more financial institutions will be moving to voice recognition which will help a lot of people, not just trans. I've long thought we should ditch all titles.

There were calls about how expensive it is be trans, what with the ops, electrolysis, clothes but, apart from TM Martin, nobody suggested any remedies. I wonder why?Martin's strategy, should you wish to know, is asking friends & family while setting up a crowdfunder.

And yes, the terrible expense of paying 100% of the bills yourself. As many of us do here. I do. I'm not trans.

I think I missed the bit where Jane Fae said NB is a protected characteristic but I did hear JF say they had had discussions at 'high levels' of government about getting rid of gender (sex) markers. I wonder why financial institutions have traditionally wanted to know the sex of their customers 🤔 - could it be so they knew who to give mortgages and loans to, and who to withhold them from?

And the presenter was sycophantic.

I have an intelligent, funny and autistic child who says they want me to use they pronouns.

Im not entirely surprised. I also have a logical, clever and funny autistic (adult) child. Mine is mildly terrified about being unable to pretend adequately that they can’t perceive sex, while knowing that The Rules say you must think of people in terms of their gender.

Mine is pretty baffled about unwritten gendered norms. If caught younger, I suspect mine too would have concluded that ‘nonbinary’ was the right label for that. Hell, I would have done so myself; I had enough mean girls at school sneering that I was ‘basically a boy in a skirt’.

If I recall correctly, the presenter spent the whole programme consciously using "sex registered at birth" rather than "sex assigned at birth". It was rather noticeable.

Yes, @nauticant, I noticed that too.

It was rather a waste of a programme I thought.

To get back to the programme, most of it was about identifying oneself, changing names & honorifics/titles.

You mean like women that take their partner’s surname on marriage do?

Behold my field of fucks for it is barren …

Agree..Gruff voiced men.
I'm so glad I missed it, ridiculous if clothes were mentioned.
We all need clothes.

Ho hum.

Nearly always ridiculously tight shiny dresses.
A caricature of what they think ''Woman'' is.

I spend a lot of time on this board. There is nothing but empathy and concern for children (often autistic) trying to navigate this bullshit. Attitudes towards self involved adults are not reflective of attitudes towards vulnerable children.

FWIW it seems that you don't really buy into this nonsense yourself. I absolutely agree that it's not worth jeopardising your relationship with your child over. Hopefully it won't go as far as hormones/binders/surgeries. But be reassured that a few people online being snippy about ridiculous adults is not the same thing as everyone hating your child.

I might listen to it tomorrow unless it's going to be rage inducing.

Fae amuses and horrifies me in equal measures - firstly because their colossal ego means they are about the only late transitioner who doesn't get arsy about being deadnamed as they are so proud of their hardcore porn defending past; and secondly because of that past and their stance on most domestic murder being as a result of women's eggshell skulls