Money Box this afternoon at 3pm on Radio 4

[nauticant]

Anyone fancy Money Box this afternoon at 3pm on Radio 4?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019b90

Felicity Hannah and a panel of experts talk money when you are transgender or non-binary.

jane fae – Director – TransActual

Cleo Madeleine – Spokesperson – Gendered Intelligence

I'd quite forgotten about Jane Fae and the eggshell skull comment. Now I shall be pondering all evening whether, upon transition, a male gets one of those pesky women's thin skulls.

Disagreement is not hatred. I don't agree with many religious teachings, that doesn't mean I hate the people who do believe. I don't believe in gender ideology, that doesn't mean I hate people who do.
The thing is your child will have to learn eventually that not everyone in the world is going to agree with or go along with their self image. That is all part of growing up, you can't protect them from everything.
If your relationship with your child is based on simply agreeing with everything they believe then you're in trouble.

What "horrible stuff"?

They might use a different bank to you. My bank doesn't do that so maybe they use the same bank as I do.

@mosesb if the worst your child experiences is people eye rolling when they’re out of sight and privately thinking their special identity is nonsense, then they will be living a charmed life,

The part I heard had me shouting at the radio.

An awful lot of whine whine whine I’m having to fund my own surgery whine whine whine I’m having to buy my own hormone treatment.

And WTAF is non binary anyway?

UrsulaPandress
And WTAF is non binary anyway?

It's code for 'I'm so super special that I just can't be considered as boring and conformist as other people'.

Symptoms usually occur in teenage years and early 20's, although some rare cases have been found in older adults who should know better.
Often accompanied by blue hair.

I seem to remember the first guy in the US who was legally declared non binary on his passport, later admitted it was all bullshit. He is now an AGP by the way.

Maybe they are going to discuss male and female salary differentials? Or how millions of transwomen born in the 1950s are being diddled out of pension rights by successive governments changing the goalposts, oh no, my bad, that one only applies to women.

Did they discuss that TWAW unless it comes to inheriting titles, in which case TWA very definitely NW?

Indeed, Matilda Simon claiming her peerage as Lord Simon. An example of male entitlement.

NB identity like Asexual identity are so desperate to show how they are oppressed and how society works against them. Teaching children that not being much into gender stereotypes and not being much into sex (the other meaning) makes you a vulnerable minority is cruelty.

What "horrible stuff"?

'I'm so super special that I just can't be considered as boring and conformist as other people'

'And what financial trauma does a non-binary person have? Apart from sore ears because everyone laughs at self indulgent bollocks'

There is plenty more about Naval gazing and thinking their so special. Some deleted. I've read it all before.

Autistic people are quite unlikely to be self indulgent and feel super special. It's not how I'd describe my child. They struggle with things that neuro typical people don't. Just no need for the nastiness.

Thanks bluemumdays, perhaps you're right

Back on the topic, the push to not record sex on bank accounts would be detrimental to women. A key fraud indicator is that the voice of someone making a request does not match the age or sex of the customer.

When telephone banking was more popular a significant proportion of our frauds were from male relatives trying to impersonate their wives, sisters, nieces etc. they'd then switch to saying that they had permission when we said no. If we start disregarding sex we lose a protective factor.

Most of the young girls and women I know who claim a 'non-binary' identity are just non-gender-conforming. If the label Non-Binary gives them the confidence to reject the porn-addled expectations of femininity society is pushing on them, I can't really blame them.

Yes, I know it's all bullshit and how someone identifies makes no difference whatsoever to what sex they are (and will remain). But young women are under pressures we never had to experience in our pre-internet, pre-social media youths. If non-binary is their coping mechinism, I'm not going to blame them.

Unfortunately, they'll learn soon enough society is crystal clear about who to give privileges and who to ignore.

Hang on, I never said that about your child specifically, I said teenagers and young adults who seem to demand special attention. Many people who claim to be non binary are not autistic. And yes, I find it ridiculous and tedious. Doesn't mean I would say something nasty to their face, but you can't control what others are allowed to think about such demands.

It's a bit rich to be worrying about people saying unkind things abut your child and then calling us all hateful.

I’m sorry @mosesb but you cannot force people to accept what your child believes. As PP. have said, if the most your child gets is an eyeroll they’ll be lucky. The fact is, every human is non binary. No one conforms 100% to gender norms. No one ‘feels like a girl’ or ‘feels like a boy’. They just are a boy or a girl, and telling them they can opt out of this is in my opinion a very cruel thing. Biology doesn’t care about feelings. It just is.

"Autistic people are quite unlikely to be self indulgent and feel super special. It's not how I'd describe my child. They struggle with things that neuro typical people don't. Just no need for the nastiness."
So is your child autistic? I have a severely autistic cousin who is also learning disabled and two autistic in-laws whose symptoms are not severe but do bring challenges. Helping them to live happy and, in the case of my in-laws, fully independent lives are the priority. Telling them the world is against them because of some made up identity which is basically gender nonconformity would not achieve either. It is Not Kind. It is infantilising them.

Laughing privately at a non-autistic adult who calls them self "non/binary", is not the same reaction that you would have to an autistic child who says they are non-binary.
A child is not an adult. Giving a child false ideas about what they are is unkind.

I'm amazed at the banks/building societies saying that they will no longer challenge if someone phones up and sounds like the wrong sex. So some bloke can ring up and as long as they get through the security questions they will be able to take actions on e.g. my mother's bank account - it is getting rid of a basic way of screening for fraud to avoid offending a couple of people!!

I'm married then divorced so changed my name to marry and changed it back when divorced. You just have to have a paper trail for banks, passport, driving licence etc. Surely trans people have a paper trail of some sort?

Also I'm parent to two autistic teenagers. They are both gender critical (who isn't?). Autistic children are so susceptible to gender identity ideology. To be non binary one of the definitions is you do not think you are male or female. That is what I laugh at it is ridiculous. What sex do they think they are? Also for autistic girls I've seen that they start off as non binary as a first step to coming out as a transboy (probably already have at school without parent's knowledge). I think most people really mean they are gender non conforming that to me is empowering, smashing sexist gender stereotypes and does not need to belong to the LGB and TQxyz community and I would give total respect for.

" I think most people really mean they are gender non conforming that to me is empowering, smashing sexist gender stereotypes and does not need to belong to the LGB and TQxyz community and I would give total respect for"

Yes. Absolutely. That's why I am so pissed off when people think they are part of some umbrella of whatevers. It's called A Personality

And no, apparently any kind of paper trail is literal violence etc

This is today's contribution to the debate from Radio 4, which you can find at 13.45:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019b43

28ish Days Later, Nineteen: Kenny

India speaks with Kenny Ethan Jones, the first transgender man to front a period product campaign. They talk about Kenny’s experience with menstruation, and transitioning. As well as Kenny's work as an activist, and his journey to peace.

It turns out the Kenny's Mum, as a parent of a "transboy", didn't feel able to tell them they would start having periods at some point meaning that when Kenny had their first one, Kenny found it to be traumatising.

One interesting part of the interview is Kenny reporting coming under attack from other transmen who objected to acknowledging the reality of them (in many case) having periods.